The Incompetent Assailant

[Euclidean]

We normally talk about times and situations where the would be victim is at some kind of disadvantage that must be overcome, however, let's consider something a little bit different. Even if you're not a fan of certain kinds of pistols, most of us have a pretty good working knowledge of the concept of a manual of arms and what the common manuals of arms are.

This comes through practice and familiarity. I daresay it gets better with age if you'll let it! I'll admit there's some weird stuff I don't fully know how to work the controls to, like a falling block pistol or a P7, but with most handguns, I can figure out pretty quickly how to make it go bang.

But I've also seen people who are true novices or just unfamiliar with a certain manual of arms get click or even nothing when they wanted bang. I even encountered a man who didn't realize you had to rack the slide. He was just stuffing in a loaded magazine and pulling the trigger.

We know to some degree from anecdotal evidence that among a lot of this scum, a firearm is just a status symbol or a tool for intimidation. Indeed, you can say "Glock revolver" to over 80% of people and not get so much as a raised eyebrow in reaction. Not that everyone else is dumb and we're special, they just don't know.

We also know, and I can't remember my source, that the police tell us that guns tend to be taken from people the crook knows or obtained through illegal sources the great majority of the time. No surprises there!

My speculation therefore is this: say you are caught in Condition White momentarily, or you are blinded by a passing car with its lights on bright, or whatever, you drop your guard for a split second and when you do some gang banging punk desperate for crack money sticks a muzzle in your nostril. For the sake of argument we'll assume he's a touch smarter than the rest and actually orients the pistol correctly so you can see the controls.

However you notice that the safety is on and his thumb isn't even on it. Let's just pretend that for the sake of argument, it happens to be a gun you're personally quite familiar with and you are thus able to distinguish this even in the poor lighting under stress. Odds are pretty good this goober has a stolen weapon he just flashes in people's faces so they'll do what he wants.

You have a conundrum. While you are at an advantage here, you have to deal with this thing that is very much trying to kill you. If you try to flee, that may give Bozo just enough time to figure out the safety is on and he may get some shots off. But if you stand your ground and neutralize the threat, you may very well have to explain yourself. Why did you shoot someone who wasn't in an immediate position to harm you?

I know what I'd do regardless, but let's turn this one loose on the forumites at large.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[MattInFla]

How long does it take to snick off a safety?

He is an imminent threat.

Matt

[rocky]

How long does it take to snick off a safety?

He is an imminent threat.

Matt

agree, err on the side of caution.

[David III]

Quoting from Gabe Suarez, I would 'shoot him to the ground' -- a firearm pointed at me is an imminent threat that must be stopped.
It is extremely likely that I would try to push his arm or his gun out of the way of my head, but I would be firing as my number one response. The fact that I am able to determine that his gun is on safe just means I have an extra moment of time to draw and fire. I'm too old and slow to just grab his gun (but many years ago, I actually did that with a little revolver that the kid apparently didn't know it only had a couple rounds in it and none on either side of the barrel -- and he hadn't cocked the hammer).
It may be that I then have to explain all kinds of things in court later, but I'd be alive to do it. And, what if the criminal is so fast that he gets the safety off and shoots me in the head? Then I die, but at least I'd have been trying to get 45 caliber bullets into him too.

[grnzbra]

Do what I had to do and, hopefully, have brains enough to not give up that little tid-bit of info. Tell it to your lawyer not the cops.

[P95Carry]

Imminent threat - no other way to read that. Act as best one can accordingly.

[MattInFla]

Do what I had to do and, hopefully, have brains enough to not give up that little tid-bit of info. Tell it to your lawyer not the cops.

Amen to that - whatever - whatever - you do, you don't want to go telling anyone "I knew his safety was on".

Matt

[Bud White]

Think ya got your answer it is a Threat for sure and now it seems here the Glock has become chioce of scumbags

So you pretty much know un less he forgot to load it its probley gonna go boom and im sorry as soon as gun is in my face im problem not check to see if safety is on im looking for my chance to get out of that problem

[Kompact9]

Euc,

Imminent threat, pull gun, apply liberally...questions to be asked/answered later, assuming one is still alive.

[Rob72]

He's dead. After making sure he is no longer a threat, and none of his buddies are coming over, I'll secure his weapon- unloaded, slide back, and safed- while calling 911. Anything other than my seeing the physical presentation of a deadly weapon, and his challenge, is non-extant.

[Betty]

I don't think I'd even notice if his safety was on. Even if I did, he could quickly flick it off, or bludgeon me with the gun or attack me with his fists when he realizes his gun isn't working. And sometimes safeties don't work. So he's still an imminent threat to me.

After making sure he is no longer a threat, and none of his buddies are coming over, I'll secure his weapon- unloaded, slide back, and safed- while calling 911.

I don't think tampering with his weapon is a good idea, even if you have good intentions in making it "safe" for the responding officers. It might be considered "tampering with a crime scene," or even throw suspicion on you.

[SARR001]

A gun in my face is a clear intent to do more than solicit donations for the Latter Day or whoever. Guy is a threat and will be dealt with accordingly. Hopefully I will live through it, if not, I go down fighting, safety or no safety.

[Rob72]

Finger spasm....

[Rob72]

I don't think tampering with his weapon is a good idea, even if you have good intentions in making it "safe" for the responding officers. It might be considered "tampering with a crime scene," or even throw suspicion on you.

I definitely know where you're coming from, Betty. However, if I'm waiting on LE, I'm going to have "custody" of the weapons, unless I'm leaving the scene due to imminent or escalating danger. I've worked EMS and corrections. Responding officers might not "like it", but it is "reasonable action", and within my experience. Obviously, lots of on-scene variables that could change my choices, either way, but within the stated scenario, that's what I would go with.

If you're sitting in a "hot" scene, you'd better have 360-eyeballs, be prepared for other homies to settle up, and/or if you leave the scene for the proverbial "well-populated area", be ready to answer why no weapon is on the person you shot, and (possibly) why there are a dozen people you've never seen swearing you started a shoving match and "shot m'boy down!". Just the thinking that went into my reply......

[WAPS]

If the opportunity arose to engage this threat, that is what I would do. The reality is as I stated in my book "Distance is your Friend, But time is your enemy". What this means is that although the hostile may be unfamiliar with the function and nomenclature of the weapon, he is very likely to figure it out long before you have a chance to get far enough away.

Therefore as far as I am concerned an IMMEDIATE THREAT is present and as such the need for immediate and aggressive counter-measures are called for and appropriate.

To mix this scenario up a bit more, why not place it in a reduced light environment which is likely to be the time when such an attack would generally occur. Now can you be 100% sure that the position of the safety is such that you have a chance to effectively retreat? (Unless you have a big red S under your street cloths, I would not attempt it).

How about if under these same conditions you engage this threat and later determine that in fact the weapon you were threatened with was a Non-Fireing replica? Would this change anything? In my opinion no it would not.

The fact remains that a object or device which is immediately capable of inflicting death or grave bodily harm is being presented against you with no reasonable avenue of retreat.

These are just some of my basic thoughts on the issue and I feel I should say that these opinions ae only based upon the information provided and fully recognize that each scenario is likely to change contiually.

Be Safe

Bryan S. Williams
Williams Associates Protective Services, LLC

Main Website - www.wa-protective.com
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