Loved One at Knife Point.

This is a discussion on Loved One at Knife Point. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The key here is avoidance of a situation where the advantage of surprise would go to a potential attacker. When in parking lots...walk down the ...

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Thread: Loved One at Knife Point.

  1. #46
    Member Array Frisco's Avatar
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    The key here is avoidance of a situation where the advantage of surprise would go to a potential attacker.

    When in parking lots...walk down the middle of the lane, so as to avoid a sharp corner where you could be grabbed unaware.

    There are volumes of words written on that subject, so I won't further abuse that dead horse.

    So, let's assume for a moment you find yourself in a situation as you describe.

    1. I carry 5-one dollar bills in a 99-cent money clip. Mas Ayoob (I have been through LFI I &II) advocated this years ago as a strategy for "buying off" thugs who want to appear tough. "Here fellas, I don't want trouble...have a beer on me." If you are forced to use deadly force or even draw your weapon...IT LOOKS FANTASTIC IN COURT. If you don't have to defend yourself...five bucks is worth it not to have to shoot someone. As a cop, I never carried the money clip, but I do as a matter of habit as a civilian now that I am retired.

    2. The dummy wallet is a good idea. The money clip also serves in this role. The truth is...if a d-bag has my wife or daughter at knifepoint and loses his concentration for ONE second while going for the loot...he is MINE. Period. Again...it will look great in court, if you are charged, that you did all you could to comply and end the situation without bloodshed.

    There is no shame on your manhood. It is called planning. Heck, if you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. Give yourself every advantage. In my career as an officer, I was involved in 2 shootings. I can tell you, neither was without it's nightmares...both legal, though totally justified, and from the standpoint of having to take a life. I know how I would react if faced with similar situations again.

    I take the safety of my wife and daughter most seriously. There is nothing I wouldn't do to bring them home alive. My wife also carries, and we have plans for home invasion and situations outside the home.

    PLAN PLAN PLAN.

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  3. #47
    Member Array Rusty Bouquett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I live in Texas, its different here.

    I live in Kalifornica, its different here too. BOY! Is it ever different here!! Just shoot that scumbag before he does any actual harm to the Mrs. and (in the big cities at least) you could be facing a stretch in the slammer.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamworth View Post
    count to 15 seconds. This is how long a person will take to die if his heart is shot out. Any hunter will confirm this who's blown a deer's heart out and still had to track it for up to a mile before it's died. ...
    Apples to oranges

    The human species is a very fragile creature. The same deer can have it's leg blown off and you will find it next season still grazing. A human will die from shock or bleed out in short order.

    I will give you that there is a small percentage that a vital hit, or any hit may not register with the BG for a while, but the fact that you just took a shot at him is going to register, screw up his plan and cause a hesitation, in which time your loved one had either do something or you better be taking a follow up shot.

    Having said that, the only knife muggings I have seen have been on TV. I kind of doubt that they will be more than 75% covered by your SO.

    The BG is expecting compliance, not looking down the barrel of a gun, this will give you the extra second to make a well aimed shot. No talking, no negotiation, 1. draw, 2. aim, 3. squeeze, repeat 2 and 3 as needed. Deal with the PO'd SO later.

    My SO, I pitty the BG. She does not carry, can not carry, but she can and will commence a beating in a very uncivilized manner. I am going to be hard put to get her to get out of the way.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #49
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    Since my wife carries, this scenario changes to how my wife would handle things. She appendix carries and the BG would not know when she draws her gun.

    It would be easier for her to figure out the right time to shot the BG then it would for me.

    The BG would never see it coming. All I would have to do is stall until she can get a chance to empty her gun in him.

    If your gf/wife doesn't carry then the real question is, why not? My wife and I have both chose not to be victims.

    We have been married 24 years. We are willing to do whatever it takes to protect each other and ourselves.

    We never want to put the other in a situation like this where the life of the other is solely up to only one of us.

    We may look middle aged and slow but a gun is always the great equalizer that makes everyone equal.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    We may look middle aged and slow but a gun is always the great equalizer that makes everyone equal.
    While no skill or tool will equalize all situations for all people, having a defensive weapon can improve the odds of surviving the outcome. That's about the most one can say, with any certainty.

    That said, it's great to see that both of you are taking the "team" approach to things. Another great way to improve the odds.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #51
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    I know this thread has been sleeping for quite awhile now, but I wanted to add one take on the scenario and see what you guys think. It's kind of long, but follow me on this...

    BG has significant other with a knife in a chokehold-type arrangement with a knife to their throat. BG demands money or they will kill your significant other. BG using a knife on a significant other, directly in front of you, demanding your money would qualify for lethal force as I think we can all agree and can also all agree that it would be a justifiable shoot if made (e.g. defense of another, knife to throat, robbery).

    The way I see it, the BG is expecting a move from you. Unlike issuing you a command to not move -- where any movement you make would be taken as hostile -- he's expecting you to move your hands and body as necessary to reach wherever your money is kept on your person. BG doesn't know where your money is. Doesn't know which pocket, doesn't know if it's a wallet, wad of cash, or what color it is. He just knows you have to reach for it to give it to him. Additionally, he knows you will have to make some gesture to give it to him so a movement after "getting the wallet" he is expecting a gesture towards him. To me this means that the BG will think nothing of a movement towards your beltline because he expects a movement there and also expects a movement towards him (e.g. as if to give him something) where the presentation of a gun at him would also be expected. He is forcing himself to be complacent of any movements to the beltline and back to in front of him.

    Taking a hostage is a completely defensive action. By taking a hostage he is seriously limiting his range of motion, movement will be severely hindered by having to coordinate movement of the hostage with his movements, and reduces his defensive abilities to a single action which is to harm the hostage. Basically he is banking on the threat of his harming the hostage will keep you at bay. The situation the BG put himself in also assumes that you will automatically comply with any and all demands of the BG. If you make a move towards the BG, their first reaction is to move backwards to assess what is coming after them (e.g. they start looking at your hands for weapons) which will be hindered by the fact that they still have a hold of another person which will not be expecting the movement and will slow -- if not negate -- their movement entirely.

    The mind works to assess a possible threat first before taking an action to stop the threat. In a situation such as a Tueller Drill (21-ft rule), both participants are fully aware of what is going on and what action they need to do. We are all aware that this take 1.5 seconds in that drill to draw, present and fire... But that's if you're expecting the situation and you are already aware of the threat. More realistically is object avoidance in driving. The actions of identifying an object in the way, assessing its characteristics, forming a plan to avoid, then taking the action to avoid is routinely accepted as 1.5 seconds. This is at the moment that the driver's attention is directed at something that may be a possible threat.

    Let's take that 1.5 seconds as a given... BG takes hostage, pulls knife to throat of hostage and demands money. You make a move for your beltline that is expected by the BG and you pull your weapon. You then make the presentation of the weapon towards the BG which is also expected to be the wallet. At this point you have just drawn and presented your weapon at the BG. This is the exact point that the BG has been directed to a possible threat, a delay created by his own design. Meaning, he has created a set of circumstances (grabbing and giving the wallet/money) that he was expecting and would automatically think nothing of it. It is at that moment he has to start identifying the object (it's a gun), assessing it's characteristics (it's not a toy or otherwise fake), forming a plan to avoid (either "fight" by harming the hostage or "flight" by running without the hostage), then implementing the plan (actually doing the fight/flight). So you have 1.5 seconds.

    Here's my idea. Draw and present, close the distance between you and him (think contact distance between gun and his head) and start firing until he drops. He's not going to move away from you, he's still attached to the hostage. He's not going to immediately harm the hostage, he wants his money. He's not going to harm the hostage because you went for your beltline and grabbed something to give to him, that's his money. And you don't really need to aim if he's less than 5 feet from you after you close the distance.

    If you can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, how many expended rounds is that after he recognized you pulled a gun on him instead?
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  8. #52
    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    A knife is more dangerous then a firearm in this situation(deadly, unstoppable bleed out). You need to have planned and practised this with your SP, signals for ready and go, what hostage and you will do. My wife knows to control threat and drop away from BG's head/heart. I signal ready(blink or key word), she signals ready, I signal go, she attempts to control knife hand while dropping/curling away from BG's heart. This gives me clean head/heart target, even a big guy could not hold the weight of victum going limp and would have to turn/twist in an attempt to hold.

  9. #53
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    In a situation like this, I personally would not want to have my SO dead weight. I would think (if I was the BG) my first reaction to someone dead weighting on me would be to get a firmer grip. If the knife is currently at their throat, I wouldn't want to risk him trying to get a tighter grip when the knife is already at their throat.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  10. #54
    Member Array MRPOWER's Avatar
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    I don't know about you all, but while im generally good in tense situations and manage to keep a clear head, i don't know if i would be able to execute a draw approach and fire quickly and smoothly enough to not allow the bg to at least recognize that i was becoming a threat. on top of that unless i was behind the bg or he was completely unaware of my presence i don't know how confident i would be firing at him while he is using my gf as a human shield. I understand that technically the approach mentioned by soundwave makes tactical sense, i am not in a special opps unit and while i do train and practice with my firearm I don't think i could do something like that with my heart racing, tunnel vision, a whole lot of adrenaline pumping, and the life of my loved one at risk. I'm not saying that i wouldn't be able to act, because i certainly would, but I think it would end up in more of a standoff in which i tell him unless she lives he dies. unless he slipped up and gave me a clear shot by moving his hostage out of the way, for me, its to big of a risk to try and shoot him while he' is holding the hostage unless there is absolutely no other way (i.e he starts counting down " i'll cut her in 3 2 1) but that is even more unlikely than the whole situation.
    when I leave this Earth, It's gonna be on both feet; NEVER KNEES IN THE DIRT

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Another possibility. One of the things I like about the XD is that it will fire with the mag out. In a mexican stand off like this scenario. I can surrender my weapon drop the mag assuring the BG the gun is unloaded as I hand him both the mag & weapon. With his attention off of my loved one I might be able to pump a .45 HST round into the BG at close range. Allowing my loved one a chance to escape as well as buy me enough time to replace the mag and chamber a round to finish the job if need be.
    I have actually practiced that shot
    We never will know until it happens as there are far to many variables but I like these topics none the less, makes us think and process our possible options
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Well one things for certain...he's not leaving without blood spurting out of several holes in him. I'd give up the wallet etc. and go from there. If I'm not able to get a clean shot while he's picking up the goods then I'd be forced to follow him around until I could. HE'S NOT LEAVING WITH HER!! If he grabs the wallet and lets her go and then runs, I'd shoot him in the back. He's a fleeing felon at that point and it's legal here. Then call the cops.
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

    NRA member

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I would be concerned with simply tossing down the goodies. I'm thinking that would tick the BG off. Now I might try to act scared and shaky, which I might not have to do any acting if this really happened, and then "accidentally" drop the stuff.

    I have a plan with my Wife if this ever happens I do a little nose wrinkle and she just goes limp. If the knife is too close to her, actually agaisnt the skin, I would not be making that call to her and she knows it so there should be no misunderstandings.

    If the dropping of the stuff does in fact take some attention off the neck of the loved one and on the goods on the ground, I may draw and charge depending on how far away I am.

    Obviously this is all "what if", I just hope "what if" never turns in to "OK, now what".
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billfromtx View Post
    Head shot at the first possible oppurtunity!
    No just the head IMHO, but a shot within the 'Death Triangle' of the head.
    Below the ridegeline into the occular cavity at the top most and down to the lower nasal cavity at the tip of the nose.
    One round in that area and he'll drop with immediate loss of motor function control.

    A difficult shot though that would require patient aimed effort.
    And you only get one try or your loved one is either dead by your own bullet or stabbed reflexively by the sound of the gun going off and the person reacting from the near miss.
    Otherwise all that's left is to give it up and hope that the BG is merciful.




    Principal motor domains
    The primary motor cortex (M1) lies along the precentral gyrus, and generates the signals that control the execution of movement. Secondary motor areas are involved in motor planning.

    Source - BrainConnection - The Brain and Learning
    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  15. #59
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmel View Post
    I'm all about being upfront and honest with people. Depending on the distance and the perp's demeanor, perhaps a conversation like the following:

    Me: "Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to throw my wallet to you. You let my loved one go and take my wallet and I'll let you go. If you harm her in any way, I will draw my pistol and fill you with holes. Your choice."

    Then, assuming he takes my advice, as soon as he releases my loved one, fill him with holes anyway. After all, he's still a threat.

    Mel
    what he said...
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Some people have said they would draw while he's holding a knife to her throat,up until then he had no idea you were armed and the chance he would make a mistake going for the valuables you threw towards him is no more since he knows you got a gun,so now it's drop the gun or I slit her throat right now.I would stay concealed til he manages to get the knife away from her throat and I get a good shot with his attention diverted draw and shoot til he quits twitching
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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