Threatened with knife
the incident happended to a friend around a year ago wondering
what anyone else would have done in the situation. this was at a big camping party around 100-150 people there all between 19 and 25yrs old, most people know each other from high school. my friend runs into a girl he graduated with and was also on the swim team with,there talking catching up, seeing how college or jobs are, the normal stuff. out of nowhere the girls boyfriend walks over and pushes my friend who loses his balace and ends up on the ground, as he is on the ground the boyfriend has a knife out and is threating him for talking to his girlfriend or something,there is a good chance the boyfriend is drunk or on drugs and was angry when he saw them talking.the girlfriend ended up calming him down letting him know they knew each other and no other problems came out of it, now this could be a very hard situation to be in if i were carrying,you know the girlfriend but not the boyfriend,he is clearly threating you and you are on the ground,lots of other people around,hard decesion to make in the couple of seconds the incident lasted
To start with, I wouldn't go to a party with 100-150 kids who are drinking and doing drugs. If I somehow did, I wouldn't let somebody walk up to me and push me to the ground...there is no such thing as coming out of nowhere. He came from somewhere and your friend didn't notice it.
Assuming I already made the first two mistakes and was on the ground, I would probably sit there, and if he advanced on me, I would probably try to break his knee. A person can exert a lot of force with a kick when they are laying on their back.
To echo Kerb's comments, the setting is already on the down side. No matter how many good intentions and good people, adds are in a group of that size there are some knuckleheads; and your friend met one.
As someone who has had knives pulled on them and have also pulled them on others I can say that your friend should have seen the guy coming and since he was already on the ground he was at a disadvantage. If the dude with the blade had stepped forward there are many things your friend could have done to even the odds up a little.
1. Kick hard and straight to bend the guy's knee the other way.
2. Slip a leg in between the guy's legs and do a full waist twist, thus tripping the guy, and then scramble to get on top of him (such as in a MMA fight)
3. Just lay there and hope the dude chills out and then resort to No. 1 or 2 if the knucklehead wants to push it.
If the guy was on drugs or drunk then the fight would most likely not be a simple and quick one, he would have had to been immobilized to prevent him from advancing, and that can lead to some testy camping, since your friend would probably be spending the night in a cell.
In a nutshell, to up the odds of surviving such things is why I carry, train.
Credibly threatened with lethal force, I am going to do everything possible to ensure the act isn't carried out. That includes anything up to and including terminating the threat with whatever force that the criminal makes necessary. The laws where I live support this, thankfully.
I'll back away and leave, if that can be done. If not, the situation specifics will dictate what gets done in response.
Yes, a situation in a crowd makes life a bit stickier, for them. Yes, it would complicate the aftermath, some. But the goal is to survive such a situation. The goal is to survive it with as little collateral damage as possible (none, if it can be managed), yes, but to survive it none the less.
But, I am not so naive as to believe a knife can be easily ignored, or likely survived intact (by me) if contact is made. I have neither the H2H/disarm skills nor the physical condition (hip/nerve problems) to assure I could survive it. In such a situation, if I am drawing, the felon is going to disarm and ultimately head to prison if I have anything to say about it.
My ifirst thoughts echo Kerbouchard's. First of all I would not put myself in a location with 100-150, 19-25 year olds drinking and possibly doing drugs. If I did go to something like that I would not be armed, I will not carry if I am drinking. So your already in a no win situation. Best you can hope for is to put him out of commission long enough to get out of Dodge! Just like not taking a knife to a gunfight, you don't go to a knife fight bare handed.
Your friend needs to start obeying the rule of the three stupids.
Do not go stupid places, with stupid people who are doing stupid things.
That isn't calling your friend stupid, mind you.
I'm just saying that the situation he was in was not the safest or smartest place he could have been.
Yeah, parties are fun...but is what can come with them worth the risk?
As for me, the moment you draw a knife on me you have just signed and notarized the organ donation form, and I just became the surgeon. I don't react well to being on the pointy end of knives.
Defender45 I noticed that you are new to this and by the nature of your thread probably young also. Sounds like the guy at the very least was a real [Edited] and was trying to impress everyone. I hope his girlfriend took notice.
What you will find out along the way is your awareness level will increase and you will learn to avoid certain situations. Having a gun, knowing that you have the ability to take a life, carries tremendous responsibility. It's not for everyone.
That is why I also carry pepper spray as an option.
With none of us being there we cannot "weigh" the severity of the situation or the validity of actual events.
Personally I would have pressed charges. Then you'd see what that guy was made of. My guess he would have wimped out a plea bargin.
150 19-25 yos 'camping' sounds like what we used to call a 'bucket of blood'. I would never have gone, old class mates or not.
That said, if you've been shoved to the ground and the 'shover' is advancing on you w/a knife, you should be able to shoot him, no problema. Why? You've already been assaulted and battered and now you're being assaulted w/a deadly weapon. You are certainly allowed to match his deadly force.
As others have already said don't put yourself in that spot ... however, if you find yourself looking up from the ground you have two obvious options. #1 you can try to defuse the situation and go on your way afterwards. #2 you can put two rounds center body mass and spend maybe $100K. But then again you "might" also get the girl, but I wouldnt count on it.
Sounds like you friend put himself in a bad situation. Hopefully he learned some thing from it.
Being on the ground isn't a bad place to be. Granted you can't run very easily, but their are several other advantages.
1. If you had to draw and fire in situation where multiple people are around, it would help to be on the ground, so that you could shoot up and avoid hitting other people.
2. Although it has been my experience the people who threaten you with a knife, are not the ones that are gong to stab you with it. If he did try and stab/slash you, due to the fact that you are on the ground, you could use your feet to defend yourself and to create a barrier that would keep him away from your vital organs.
3. If you were on the ground and he did attack further and you had to use lethal force, their would be no question that he was the aggressor.
This situations demonstrates why it is important to develop the skill of drawing from a seated/prone position and to be able to get to your feet while keeping your weapon pointed at the bad guy. Just like everything else, this takes practice.
I don't go to bars, and I don't go to campgrounds with hundreds of drinking folks...I used to, but not now...age and experience does assist in living longer.
I'm too old to fight for very long, if someone pushes me...first point is that I will probably sense it coming (I do not turn my back to anyone.)...I will be moving away while preparing (mentally) for a quick and violent reprisal...old men are not able to give a long hard battle, that's why they'll just kill you.
I WILL always try to walk away...I will apologize, even if I am in the right...just do not touch me, that's where the rubber meets the road for me. I will do all I can to ensure that I go home to my wife at the end of the day.:yup: I am still capable of ruining someone's day. Don't confuse politeness and humility with weakness and fear.:blink:
Stay armed...think ahead...stay safe!
1) I wouldn't have gone there in the first place.
Originally Posted by defender45
2) If I had, I would have maintained situational awareness, and not allowed myself to be pushed over and knocked to the ground.
3) Nonetheless, if I had a moment of inattention, ended up on the ground, and saw some fellow with a knife advancing on me, it's showtime. I've been attacked, I'm at a position of disadvantage, and someone is coming at me offering me lethal force. Now is not the time to engage in self-esteem counseling for some punk.
Point #1 is perhaps the most important.
For me it would be hand subtly resting on the SP101's grip while the other is casually relaxed, laying on the ground next to me.
Move your body from a sprawling i-just-got-knocked-on-my-ass position to a relaxed, lounging position. From there, talk. Calmly. If he attacked with his body first, then pulled the knife, odds are he's not really prepared to use it. He's waiting for you to fight back, to take a swing at him to galvanize him into doing something he's not otherwise ready to do on his own.
Basically, chill out. You have the gun, you know you have the gun. He doesn't. So while he's standing there flexing his vocabulary, smile disarmingly at him, reassure him that you were just trying to catch up with an old friend (IF that's indeed what you were doing:image035:) and give him some time to blow off some steam and reassure himself of his manhood. :tired:
In the meantime, quietly squeeze the thumb strap open on your holster, get a good grip, and wait for him to make a move. By acting like you suddenly decided to lay down on the grass you make HIM the center of attention, Not yourself.
Its a poor situation to be sure, being on your back in the dirt with nothing solid to back in to, but odds are good that getting to your feet is going to put you in a much worse situation that staying low, ready to fire from prone(ish). Your going to give yourself a bigger blind spot (behind you) and your going to give him a great reason to give you some more attention.
I mean, how manly can he possibly look by yelling/brandishing a knife at some dude that's just laying on the ground, smiling, chilling. Odds are better that anyone who jumps into the scene will be doing so in YOUR defense, not in his.
Use social pressure to his ego before copper-jacketed pressure to his brain. :boese51:
IMO he's some punk kid trying to look hard. He's not worth your bullet, certainly not worth several months of your life and a small fortune in court fees.
If you pull your gun, and do ANYTHING but immediately fire, you have now put him in a situation where his microscopic brain is faced with either losing face in front of hundreds of peers AND his girlfriend, or pulling what i'm sure he envisions as some slick, jacki-chan move to disarm you and kick your ass.
In the end, you end up with blood on your hands that didn't have to be there.
...and lets just say your social circle wont be setting any records either.
Its not about one-upping some stupid punk who's trying to impress his girlfreind.. its about survival.
just my $.02
...there's a certain line that comes to mind about bringing a knife to a gunfight that I will refrain from using in light of our esteemed colleagues of Italian descent..:privateeye:
Originally Posted by Slimz13
A person's ability to evade while on the ground is severly limited and if the guy decides to attack you while on the ground, even if the defender is able to draw & fire fatal shots, the attacher will still have enough life in him to fall down on the defender and pound him with a knife as if the guy on his back were...well, I'll refrain from the reference...
Your advice describes a wonderful way to die.
If someone presents a lethal force threat, you respond with appropriate force.
As for knives being brought to gunfights, get real. Fights are fights, especially at such close distances.
At the distance described someone can he the walking dead with rounds in their heart and still have enough oxygen in their blood to power the body for 15 seconds or more - time they can use to fall onto you and turn you into a sack of bloody hamburger.
Even if, as you assume, someone can get a head shot, guess what?
People shot in the head don't vanish.
The guy with the knife just may keel over and fall on the downed defender. Knife first.
Know anyone who has lived with a colostomy bag? I do. It wasn't a pleasant way for this person to live for 2 years and 3 abdominal operations.
Punk kid or not, its a big boy's world, and playing with knives are big boy's games.
Big boy rules apply.
Oh, and stay out of situation involving alcohol, 50 or more late teen/early 20's people were women are present in great quantity.
Nothing good ever comes out of those situations. They are only fun till someone gets shot, stabbed or beaten by another drunken fool.
Very sound advice. I personally would still feel it counterproductive to draw unless I had already decided to kill the man (in this particular scenario), simply because the type of aggressor and his actions so far shows that the the only thing he's really interested in is not losing face. Put him in a scenario where he has to publicly submit to a guy he's in conflict with, and he's going to do something really stupid. Terminally stupid. That or he might retreat just long enough to get some buddies or find a new angle to attack from. Also not good.
Originally Posted by MitchellCT
To me, this situation is not beyond diffusing. That's just me. I AM NOT, however, suggesting that you for one second fail to take him seriously as a threat, regardless of who's carrying what or how far away the threat is.. Certain situations can be diffused by simply presenting your pistol (which i know is not the extent of your suggestion), this is not one of them. I believe it would have the opposite effect. To me, if i feel the need to do any more than talk, i'm going to keep shooting as long as he's on his feet. If he can hold a knife, he can attack with it.
Either way, the best course of action is clearly to not have been in that situation in the first place. Guns & Booze (& drugs) don't mix, this even holds some weight if YOU aren't the one drinking.