Attacked While Armed = Lethal Force?

This is a discussion on Attacked While Armed = Lethal Force? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm in my 60's...disparity of force is important. First of all, I'm not going to bars, bad neighborhoods, drug houses, empty dark parking lots at ...

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Thread: Attacked While Armed = Lethal Force?

  1. #16
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    I'm in my 60's...disparity of force is important.
    First of all, I'm not going to bars, bad neighborhoods, drug houses, empty dark parking lots at night, ATM's, etc., I pretty much mind my own business.

    Now if trouble come my way, it's most likely not going to be another 65 year old looking for a wrestling match. Anyone else attempting to hassle me for my wallet, my car, my wife, etc., will be considered a real threat to my person...in fact, I will probably fear for my life...thus, the threat must be removed. 'Nuff said...

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Don't threaten me and I won't ruin your day!
    Yes SIR!
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Just because he's unarmed doesn't mean you can't use a weapon.

    What else do you carry? Mini-Maglites make excellent kubatons. Real world H2H training is essential.

    Josh <><

  5. #19
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    The most important part of any encounter that leads to a permit holder producing their weapon in self defense is going to be the lead up. If there is a threat of physical assault, what were the circumstances? What could the permit holder have done differently? Pulling a firearm to avoid a fight is justifyable in most places. Pulling it and then using it means there has to have been an escalation that is outside the control of the permit holder and the attacker continued in the face of certain reprisal. The threat of their attack, despite your attempts to avoid it, is enough to clear leather. The use of deadly force after that may not be cut and dry. As permit holders we are told in our training in Texas that we are now held to a different standard of social behavior. We must be more level-headed and in control than we may have been before. Precisely because we bring a gun to any fight we are in, we must avoid fights at all costs. There is a difference between a fight and an assault, make no mistake. A fight is something you are a participant in. An assault is something you are a victim of. When you put on the holster and insert the gun you have to leave some of your vanity and pride at home because you cannot get into a petty squabble that could lead to having to fight someone.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Again, the disparity of force issue would come into play.

    Unfortunately, I'm a big guy; it'd take a REAL big guy beating on me to justify lethal force...which is why I'm starting to reconsider my views on carrying a lesser force option...in particular, the Kimber Guardian Angel (or, I think they're calling them "Pepper Blasters" now...).

    Not to hijack, but has anyone had any experience with one of these critters?
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Tyler11B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    The most important part of any encounter that leads to a permit holder producing their weapon in self defense is going to be the lead up. If there is a threat of physical assault, what were the circumstances? What could the permit holder have done differently? Pulling a firearm to avoid a fight is justifyable in most places. Pulling it and then using it means there has to have been an escalation that is outside the control of the permit holder and the attacker continued in the face of certain reprisal. The threat of their attack, despite your attempts to avoid it, is enough to clear leather. The use of deadly force after that may not be cut and dry. As permit holders we are told in our training in Texas that we are now held to a different standard of social behavior. We must be more level-headed and in control than we may have been before. Precisely because we bring a gun to any fight we are in, we must avoid fights at all costs. There is a difference between a fight and an assault, make no mistake. A fight is something you are a participant in. An assault is something you are a victim of. When you put on the holster and insert the gun you have to leave some of your vanity and pride at home because you cannot get into a petty squabble that could lead to having to fight someone.
    you hit the nail on the head, i carry and im 22 years old, i got out of the army not too long ago, and had to hang my pride up quick and fast when it came to confrontations. my step dad always told me exactly what you said iceman "now that you carry, your on a different playing field, avoid the petty things. trust me its not worth the consequences to shoot someone over a parking spot." it takes alot to send me over the edge anyways, but back to the topic. if anyone tries to physically harm me or the ones i love/ones who cant defend themselves i will react accordingly, and if i feel that i/they are physically overwhelmed then deadly force will enter the picture.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Again, the disparity of force issue would come into play.

    Unfortunately, I'm a big guy; it'd take a REAL big guy beating on me to justify lethal force...
    The justification for lethal force is lethal threat, not size.

    Disparity isn't a matter of size. Size might influence things. So might numbers of attackers. So might the location of the attack (ie, at a dead-end alley). But in the end, it's about the threat, and that can easily come from skill/ability of the BG, which is utterly hidden until the moment of truth. The day you're jumped by a little one who has severe H2H skills is the day you'll realize how much can be contained in a small package. Be cautious about blithely ignoring the risks if it doesn't come in a large/muscular package.
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    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    M is for means...(BG has the ability to harm you, Physical skill, Weapon(s) ).
    O is for Opportunity...(BG has the means ANDis close enough and the situation allows him/her to do harm to you and/or yours)

    I is for intent (BG has both of the above and intends on using them, ie..."I'm gonna kill, stab, shoot you, points weapon at you hits/strikes you with weapon.)

    My CCW instructors(both State LEO) said if you do not have any of those three things you do not have the right to shoot. Of course all situations are fluid, and circumstances are mitigating. But it does seem like a good set of general rules to follow.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The justification for lethal force is lethal threat, not size.

    Disparity isn't a matter of size. Size might influence things. So might numbers of attackers. So might the location of the attack (ie, at a dead-end alley). But in the end, it's about the threat, and that can easily come from skill/ability of the BG, which is utterly hidden until the moment of truth. The day you're jumped by a little one who has severe H2H skills is the day you'll realize how much can be contained in a small package. Be cautious about blithely ignoring the risks if it doesn't come in a large/muscular package.

    Well, MN law says that I'm justified in the use of lethal force if the situation meets 4 criteria:

    1) Reasonably believe I am in danger of death or grave bodily harm
    2) Reluctant participant
    3) No retreat is possible (without putting self/loved one in more danger)
    4) No lesser force will do

    Now: since I doubt that the your h2h master cited above will be walking around in a gi with his black belt prominently displayed, I can't reasonably assume that some potential unarmed attacker is actually the second coming of Bruce Lee, and react right off the bat with drawing my weapon. The only criteria that have been met are the inability to retreat & reluctant participant.

    If I'm having my behind handed to me, that's a horse of different stripes.

    This is the reason why I'm looking at lesser force options, and would think that would be the best way to go in the original scenario.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Well, MN law says ...
    Which is why each needs to review his/her own applicable laws. It can vary quite starkly from any general standard.

    1) Reasonably believe I am in danger of death or grave bodily harm
    Grant that this can occur before an actual deadly strike is landed. Even a single strike can knock a person out. BTDT myself, on both ends (attacked, and defending against attack).

    Now: since I doubt that the your h2h master cited above will be ... the second coming of Bruce Lee ...
    Any garden-variety BG will be able to make quick work of someone (a) without sufficient H2H skills or (b) physically disabled in a material way [as I am].

    This is the reason why I'm looking at lesser force options, and would think that would be the best way to go in the original scenario.
    A good idea, if you can manage the practical ramifications of meandering up a series of lesser-force options. Given that time can be critical in these situations, this avenue isn't for everyone.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #26
    New Member Array collegecarry's Avatar
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    Prevention of a forcible felony is reasonable defense.

    Not sure about other states, but here in Georgia, I am allowed to defend myself against a forcible felony with deadly force. There is a grey area when it comes to assault that doesn't involve a weapon, but if I am unsuccesful at diffusing a situation verbally or walking away from the situation, and someone who is capable of dropping me advances with apparent intent to do so, you can bet I'll be ready to draw.

  13. #27
    Member Array Rusty Bouquett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Good reason why the need to take HTH training...one shoe does not fit all.Rick

    HTH training don't mean squat if the guy is bigger, stronger, quicker, and determined to do you harm. You'd have to be an Nth degree black belt in some really nasty martial arts to come out on top. They don't call handguns "equalizers" for naught.

  14. #28
    Member Array Rayman's Avatar
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    Just had my ccw class not too long ago. And from what I can remember, here's what the lawyer told us (in Ohio). This is all for proofing self-defense. Because you're already quilty after you've shot someone...outside of your home of course.

    You cannot be the one to instigate the situation.
    You cannot prolong the situation...meaning run if you can.
    You cannot escalate the situation...meaning you can't draw first.

    And as far as feeling your life was threatened. There usually must be a weapon of deadly force involved from the BG. The "weapon of deadly force" can be anything and will be up to the jury to decide if it was in fact a weapon. In an unarmed situation, you must be at a huge disadvantage to justify a self-defense. Like if you were handicap and the BG is a martial artist or you're a little female and the BG was over 250 lbs. He also mentioned being out numbered 3 to 1 would also justify.

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