Bangers in the gun shop - Page 3

Bangers in the gun shop

This is a discussion on Bangers in the gun shop within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My grandfather would have called "profiling" using common sense, because most of the time it is. If you know what people think of you when ...

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Thread: Bangers in the gun shop

  1. #31
    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    My grandfather would have called "profiling" using common sense, because most of the time it is. If you know what people think of you when you dress and act a certain way, and choose to do so anyhow, you've set yourself up. If you don't like the way I think of you when you set yourself up, gee, that's just too bad. I see the news every night in the perinneal front-runner for murder capital of the USA (Memphis, TN), and have yet to see the perp's mug shot taken in a suit, Brooks Brothers or other. People who try to float political correctness on this issue are outta luck PDQ with me....

    I think the OP did a good job, and I would likely have done the same, if not taking the step to untuck that he considered.

    Edit: I have friends of many ethnicities. All of them are responsible, upstanding citizens that wear their clothing like adults, attend church, and respect themselves and others. If they didn't, they wouldn't be friends, 'cause I'd have "profiled" them right outta my life.


  2. #32
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    Does anyone remember that this takes place in a gun shop?? It is not in the proverbial Wal-Mart. It seems to me to be a little paranoid in thi situation. There are certain places that you can feel more safe and comfortable, like a gun shop where most if not all of the clerks are openly carrying. Does any one understand the point that i am making? There is a very fine line between paranoid and aware, that i fully understand. It seems to be an extreme reaction to seek cover and even consider readying a weapon in this situation. I read nothing of a direct threat whether real or imagined, and I was under the impression that one should feel personally threatened. By reading the Original post, the OP seemed to be intimidated rather than threatened. I was not there obviously so I am only commenting on what I am reading.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    If you dont wanna be stereotyped as a "banger" then dont look and/or act like one. Simple enough.
    +1. I agree.

    To Major99: On the street I don't have time to get to know you, your story and your family. If I saw you all inked up and looking like a Hells Angel I'd pay closer attention to you in the 5 minutes that our lives crossed. Then I'd pay closer attention to the next "tough" looking character in my path.

    For those of us who have lived in gang ridden areas it is not stereotyping to say that three "gang bangers" came into a store. I lived in San Diego and LA for years. Lots of black and latino gangs there, and they were killing people wholesale in the 90s (when I was there). You would be a fool not to pay closer attention to them.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  4. #34
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Well, much as I dislike to stereotype or judge folks by the way they look, I've been in the gun shop several times lately, and the younger looking crowd will come in while I'm there. For the most part, they wear baggy pants or shorts, bandanas, muscle shirts, have questionable tattoos, various ethnic backgrounds and the like. I chalk it all up to the generation gap until they start handling the hardware and taking aim at inanimate objects around the shop and laughing and such. I have no right to judge on appearances, but I do sometimes have reservations and wonder about their end usage or intent of such items. I am somewhat placated by their signs of inexperience, and me knowing I have some equal or better hardware and more experience to thwart possible evil attempts they may have in mind now or in the future, and knowing these folks are actually going to a gun shop and possibly buying something following the same legal procedures you and I do instead of transferring them amongst each other on the street, or stealing something from someone else. The day I see some dark complected guy in a gun shop wearing a turbine and carrying a briefcase......................................... ................

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    +1. I agree.

    To Major99: On the street I don't have time to get to know you, your story and your family. If I saw you all inked up and looking like a Hells Angel I'd pay closer attention to you in the 5 minutes that our lives crossed. Then I'd pay closer attention to the next "tough" looking character in my path.

    For those of us who have lived in gang ridden areas it is not stereotyping to say that three "gang bangers" came into a store. I lived in San Diego and LA for years. Lots of black and latino gangs there, and they were killing people wholesale in the 90s (when I was there). You would be a fool not to pay closer attention to them.
    I agree with you. My ultimate point is that by paying too much attention to the obvious potential BG you miss the potential others.

    Also if i saw me and some of my buddies all inked up on bikes at a stoplight, I'd be watching me too. Looks are sometimes the key to a persons character but Ted Bundy didnt look like a BG either.

  6. #36
    Member Array cv7713's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zundfolge View Post
    Dude pulled a G17 out of his pants and accepted $200 for it.


    Seriously. You're gonna pull the "can't judge a book by its cover" bit on this one?

  7. #37
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    I don't disagree wit the concerns the OP had at all but I don find that the same people who are so quick to judge people by their looks are the same ones who complain about LEO being careful of anyone with a gun. In fact I fnd many of the comments on gun boards to be downright hypocritical in saying that it is OK for the general public to stereotype people for some reason but cops shoudl ignore anyone who carries a gun and doesn't look like what is commonly refered to as a gangbanger. I must say that the attitude on this board is not as bad as on some and that is why I like this board but on some which will remain nameless it is almost sickening with the hypocracy.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by major99 View Post
    My ultimate point is that by paying too much attention to the obvious potential BG you miss the potential others.
    I went back and re-read your posts. It looks to me like your point was not judging a book by its cover.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I went back and re-read your posts. It looks to me like your point was not judging a book by its cover.
    I will admit that after rereading my posts i was a little scattered but the point stands that if you judge a book by its cover, then the "Saturday Evening Post" guy in the corner could stab you in the back for $1. I was making the point in very very small steps when I should have spent the time to put it all down at once.

  10. #40
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    A stereotype generally isn't valid, since it's a generalization applied to an individual. Doesn't mean that frequent indicators should be ignored. That's simple foolishness.

    We've all seen groups of young men moving together. We've all seen the little signs and indicators that mark some groups as something out of the ordinary, or having a purpose. We've all seen individuals going into gun shops with the intent of having a gun purchased. Many have also seen an individual wind up and clock someone, believing he wasn't observed up to that point.

    But how often is it that one of a group "pulls a Glock 17" and moves toward the counter? How often is it that four distinctly separate opinions all seem to match, in terms of elevated alertness in response to the situation (the three staffers and the one customer [OP])? Did the group fan out once they entered the store? Did they seem have a particular urgency or purpose in their eyes or demeanor that went beyond the norm? Hard to say what sends those little hairs standing up, but we've all been there. Shoelaces, pants and coloring aren't the only things worth paying attention to. It's the whole that matters.

    Nothing's for certain in this life. But indicators are what they are. When they end up being fairly frequently a part of the dress, demeanor, actions or speech of perpetrators who are reported being involved in bad deeds, it's hard to ignore such things as complete irrelevancy. Doesn't mean the particular "new" group or individual in question is bad or is planning bad things. Doesn't mean the conjunction of these multiple indicators in the person or group means there's a threat. It simply means that, statistically, the probability is higher, nothing more.

    Proof's a jealous thing. It's not satisfied until the truth is known. With strangers, here's the thing: you can't possibly know until the truth shows itself. That's the whole point of situational awareness and being prepared. You never know.

    For those who want to review the previous discussion on the same sort of topic: click. Recall that it got closed due to mud slinging. Caution.
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  11. #41
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    I'll admit it: I put people into boxes all the time. I just make sure to give them the benefit of the doubt to easily get OUT of the box I mentally put them in, once evidence is presented that I was a bit too hasty.

    I'm a white male with a Master's, and have been 'profiled' as well: I had been working on my nearly-dead VW all day and still dressed mostly in grease took it out for a test drive at 9 PM or so. I saw a stalled car on the freeway and stopped to offer help. If the lady had been carrying mace, I'm sure I would have gotten a faceful by her reaction. A few days later I did the same thing, but this time driving my classic Mercedes home from work, with white shirt, tie, and a few pens in the pocket (I taught), and I was welcomed as Michael the Archangel would have been not a half mile from there. Not as bad as others have it, that's for sure - and once every few decades ain't bad. But I have had a glimpse of what it is like, and my sympathies are with all of those who are misclassified.

    Henryher - if we ever meet, I would consider it an honor to buy you a drink. Major99 - you, too.

    So far as the original topic goes, I think I would have done a fade, myself. The gun shop folks could presumably take care of themselves, and I wouldn't want to get inbetween them and the job they might see a need to do.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array ridurall's Avatar
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    When I was stationed at Pope AFB NC I worked part time at Cumberland Knife and Gun. At the time we used the "permit to purchase a handgun" system to keep from pulling out the handguns for all the GIs with too much time on their hands. This was back in the 1980's and GIs pulling the trigger on the revolvers would make a new gun look used. Anyway a good customer & wife came in wanting to look at a 1911 with Pachmayer grips, flat main spring housing and a bunch of other stuff on it but didn't have the permit. Since I'd sold him several guns in the past year I took my own 1911 out which was much like the one he wanted to look at. I unloaded my gun and handed it to him. When he got done he handed it back to me and as I put the magazine back in a black guy with a bowling bag and a .410 Snake Charmer came in the front door. Now this is Fayetteville NC and a gun shop so it didn't really set off my hinky button. As he walked up to me I chambered a round in my .45 and asked if I could help him? He sucked wind for a second and then squeeked out "how much for ammo for the 410". I'm standing there with a loaded .45 in my hand and told him $5 a box or what ever it was at the time. He replied "never mind" and walked out.

    30 minutes later he robbed Bragg Pawn just up the street. Of course I didn't know anything about it until I read Sunday's paper. When I did I called the Sheriff's department and they said "we need to talk to you". The guy that got robbed was so shook up he couldn't give a description but had a 410 ring on his chest where the BG shoved the shotgun into it so hard. The caught him a month later in NYC trying to sell the 36 handguns he stole from Bragg Pawn. They guy he robbed was not a good witness, as he was very shook up with a red .410 sized ring in his chest where the gun was pressed against him.

    It would have been a pretty dumb move on his part to try and rob our store as we had 8 armed guys working that Saturday morning and all of us were either a Special forces commander, competitive shooters or marksmanship training instructors. Of course that wouldn't have done me any good against that single shot but he wouldn't have made it out the door.

    I just plain got lucky that day.

    Afterward I got to thinking about situational awareness. I should have paid better attention and it very will could have ended with me being shot except for me just happening to have my .45 in my hand at the time.

    A few years later one of my customers that owned a pawn shop in Altus, Oklahoma got shot in the top of his head by a crack head when he reached into his case to show him some "bling". Killed him instantly and left his wife with a 4 year old boy to raise herself. They caught the BG an hour later on top of a roof trying to hide from the police about 3 blocks away. Ended up serving life in prison. The shop owner never had a chance. His mistake was taking his eyes off the bad guy. He was armed but had put the gun higher up to keep it out of the reach of his son. Should have kept his eye on the BG and been wearing his gun. That episode really made me think about situational awareness and I never know what part of town going to end up in. If profiling makes you safer, I'm all for it.

    I carry my gun every day all day and I pay attention to what is going on around me. Especially when I'm in the "bad" section of town. A while back while at a house to do a job I noticed that the cars were parked on the front yard and the music as playing pretty loudly. As I knocked on the front door I heard lots of scurrying inside but no one came to the door. I knocked again with the same response. I shifted my gun to where I could get a hold of it quicker. I think called the customer and let them know I'm not a cop but there to do my work in the back yard and wanted to know if they had any mean dogs. The guy said through the door, "no man the dogs all died". So goes my job and I'm going to keep profiling so hopefully I make it home every day.

    Don't feel bad when your hinky button goes off. Pay attention to it, it might save your life or your families life.
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    I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by major99 View Post
    Are you calling them "bangers" due to the way theey were dressed or attitude, or something else? Just out of curiosity, What would be your response or judgement if I ,with a few of my friends, BTW all of us bikers and CCers, walked into that same shop? Tattoos displayed with old worn leather jackets, long hair, and the whole Hollywood stereotype. Let me also tell you that we ALL have families and work full time jobs and are homeowners. Kinda kicks the crap out of the stereotype huh? I dont argue the point of being alert, however, I do argue the point of "taking cover" just in case. crime and shootings come from black guys in urban gear as well as white guys in Brooks Brothers suits and vice versa. Those 3 " bangers " are most likely just like you in the fact that they believe in protecting themselves and their family. Dont judge a book by it cover....
    +1 well said.

  14. #44
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    Would you argue that people become more aware as their comfort level is disturbed? Say maybe through intimidation?
    No sir I would not. By the time intimidation shows up I have a history of being offensive, not more aware. I do not as I'm sure you do not sit passively as any degree of intimidation begins to present itself. I simply will react to what I'm presented with, and usually pretty quickly. The choice of presentation is entirely up to whoever gains my attention, and for whatever reason.
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  15. #45
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    well, it's nice to know where i stand with some of you guys. i guess i need to stop dressing like a "banger" so the guys who say profiling is okay will stop profiling me.

    jeez.

    what kind of hood goes into a gun shop and sells a glock? and what kind of gunshop does so without the proper paperwork? this story gives me the warm and fuzzy suspicions inside.

    nothing wrong with being aware of what's going on around you. but why would one group of guys make you more nervous than another group of guys? would it sound unreasonable to say that if a group of men dressed like farmers or NASCAR fans walked into a store, my awareness level would go up? i'm sure most here would say i was being silly. the type of mental associations people have have little to do with reality, and much to do with social prejudices.

    so what i'm trying to say is, get over yourselves.


    PS: getting $200 for a used glock is a pretty good deal in most gunshops. you all should know that; most small gunshops and pawnshops pay out as little as possible, then mark it back up as soon as you walk out the door.

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