This is a discussion on Bangers in the gun shop within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have no problem with profiling and being wary of anyone for whatever reason you want to. In fact I think it is a pretty ...
I have no problem with profiling and being wary of anyone for whatever reason you want to. In fact I think it is a pretty good idea. But then we hear the same people doing the profiling complaining about the po-po disarming them during a traffic stop and treating them like a common criminal even thought they have a permit and have proven they are the good guys. He just wants to go home when his shift is over just like you.
Let's say you decide today to dress as a gang member, with your red hat with the playboy bunny looking left, a red bandanna hanging out of your left pocket. Belt on in such a way to hang low on the left side. Left shoe untied with the tongue hanging out. Boy you look cool don't you! And you are going to go to the local gun store to sell your $200 Glock, all perfectly fine. Don't worry about me in the gun store, profiling you and going from yellow to orange when you walk in the door. If you don't do anything to justify my concern, there's nothing to worry about. Do worry about the fine-upstanding-gentlemen-real-gang-banger that just happens to have allegiance to the other side. He's the guy that's going to kill you.
When I carry concealed, my purpose is to not be noticed. For the most part that means dress lower-middle class. If you live in an area where it's different, move, you live in a bad area. Dressing as a gang-banger or a Hell's Angel gets you noticed. You can't do that and then claim you didn't want to be noticed anymore than dangling $100 bills out of your pockets.
No, you need to stop dressing like a banger so you won't look like a banger.. When I get dressed, I (like everyone else) know that I am putting on a costume, a costume designed to portray certain universally accepted attributes. Those attributes may or may not be true, but when I choose to dress a certain way, I am choosing to portray myself in a certain light. You are choosing this as well, and then getting mad when you draw the attention that you are actively seeking.i guess i need to stop dressing like a "banger" so the guys who say profiling is okay will stop profiling me.
I grew up as a punk, in the "mohawk and loud music" sense of the word. When I put on my 20-hole Docs and Exploited t-shirt, I knew what people would think. If you intentionally wear your pants around your knees and intentionally wear a t-shirt that would be too long on Shaq and intentionally wear one pants leg pulled up or your hat cocked way off to one side or any of the other obvious, overt, intentional signals of "banging," then you shouldn't get upset when someone recognizes what you have strove so hard to represent.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
That's why I wear obnoxious Hawaiian shirts over my black 5.11 pants tucked into cowboy boots. Nobody knows WHERE to profile me!
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
I've grown up with all sorts of people.
I have known gangbangers, people who are in prison now, and I went to highschool with. Murdered, or dead.
I have known rich kids, who got cars when they're 16, had the best education/houses, who dressed well and looked the part of an honest kid. Who are now in jail, murdered, or dead.
Look, the world is crazy. Anything can happen.
The one constant is your instincts can serve you well, and if my 'gut feeling' tells me something about this guy is wrong, regardless if the 'gut feeling' goes off on more 'stereotyped' people, I am still going to follow that feeling.
Its served me well in the past.
most shops here have a " do NOT unholster your firearm in the store " seems like a pretty reasonable rule.
I profile every day.
I'm learning to observe people better, and am finding I profile on many more details than I previously did. I profile on how a man holds himself, how he walks, how he dresses, how aware he is to those around him, how much attention he is paying to me, how his mannerisms fit into what I consider normal and acceptable public behavior, etc.
When I am in a crowd and cannot watch everyone, I place my resources on those I judge the highest threat.
I plan to continue profiling. It's not foolproof, but it's better than being in condition white all the time. The blank-staring, head-down guy looking at nothing directly out of his line of vision as he heads for the coffee machine at 6 a.m. is probably less of a threat than the bulked-up and agitated construction worker openly staring down anyone who happens to look his way. The short-haired office-type guy with the expensive dress shirt and tie is probably less of a threat than the street dude in a hoody who has his face partially covered. And you can bet I'm profiling the clean-cut guy who is open carrying as probably a detective or other LEO. I figure he's either LEO or one who is secure in his knowledge of the law and ready for a confrontation explaining himself to the police. Extremely doubtful he's carrying illegal.
I wish someone had profiled the hijackers on 9/11.
And I don't care if I'm profiled. Maybe I should be. Maybe that out-of-place dude sitting on the outside window of the QuickTrip the other morning profiled me as I walked by him. He was looking for something in my eyes. Maybe he profiled me as bad for his health, which is what I suspect. So profiling may have been good for him.
I'll still be watching that sleepy guy headed for the coffee, but I'll be paying more attention to the wolf who is interviewing me.
I say "profile on." I intend to.
Well said Grady!
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
I agree. Very good points grady.
Also, I hope people agree with me on this, I know that RACE is always part of profiling, for good reason if you go by statistics alone. BUT, whenever I profile, it ALWAYS has to do with what Grady has stated FIRST. Dress, Attitude, and Presentation. Race to me only mitigates or intensifies the levels of each above, minorly. I'm not racist at all, I have a lot of African American friends, I rent out a house of mine to a Pakistani family who just came to the US to get away from unrest in their country. I always look at dress first. "gang banger" dress, baggy clothes, chains etc will get my negative attention, along with unkempt dress also. Black, White, Hispanic, doesn't matter. Usually if the dress fits that description, so does the next, Attitude. Usually GB type dress, facilitates the "Ebonics" language and the "hardcore" punk "badda$$" confrontational attitude. Proceeding those, is presentation. first contact usually also is matching to the first two "levels" of my profiling. Aggressive presentation (personal space invaded/not respected, of you or sig. other) is a good example.
I usually go by these "levels" when "profiling" and I'm usually very accurate in doing so. It's more a survival thing than a emotional/political/social thing. I and many others could dive into a whole bunch of psychological babble behind what I posted above, but in RL, it's simple, its proven, and it works for me.
I DO have friends that dress like GB'ers, and I also have friends that talk with "Ebonics". I also have friends that invade my personal space. The thing is, they don't make it all the way through my three "levels" of profiling. Only when these three things all match up do I start my personal defense process.
Its very nice to see everyone being so civil in a post thats touchy, I applaud everyone and wish society could be like all of us!!
I, too, pay attention to everyone, but certain stereotypes get particular attention (profiling, if you prefer). It doesn't mean that I'm a racist and you are not being discriminated against. If I don't know you, and you match those on my personal watch list, I reserve the right to pigeon-hole you any way I see fit and refuse to apologize for it....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
Let me pose this question as it relates to this thread: You are in a building waiting for the elevator. It is late at night and there is no one else around. The elevator arrives, the door opens and you observe the following three guys in the elevator: (1) three young black guys dressed in the "gang banger" mode of dress; (2) three young white guys dressed in the "biker" mode of dress; (3) three young guys(black or white, or a combination) dressed in business suits and all looking well groomed.
As to the three scenarios, which, if any, would make you uneasy about getting into the elevator and why?
And, please be honest about how you think you would react. Me first: there is no question in my mind that I would be very concerned about getting into the elevator in scenarios (1) and (2), and the reason is because of stereotyping for which I also make no apologies. I would rather be politically incorrect, then dead or beaten.
Now, I am not necessarily suggesting that the three guys in scenario (3) might not be a threat, only that there is a present reality that I refuse to ignore.
"It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."
J. R. R. Tolkien