14-year-old shot during Mich. toilet paper prank

This is a discussion on 14-year-old shot during Mich. toilet paper prank within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wasn't sure where to post this, hopefully this is the right place for discussion. SOLON TOWNSHIP, Mich. - A toilet paper prank has led ...

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Thread: 14-year-old shot during Mich. toilet paper prank

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    14-year-old shot during Mich. toilet paper prank

    I wasn't sure where to post this, hopefully this is the right place for discussion.

    SOLON TOWNSHIP, Mich. - A toilet paper prank has led to the shooting of a 14-year-old by a southwestern Michigan man who believed strangers were trying to break into his home.

    The Grand Rapids Press and WZZM-TV report the victim and four other teens were pulling the prank about 1 a.m. Sunday at a home in Solon Township, about 20 miles northeast of Grand Rapids.

    Kent County sheriff's Lt. Jerry Miedema says the teens were intent on draping the house in toilet paper, while the homeowner's "intent was to come out shooting."

    Police say three shots were fired from a 12-gauge shotgun, striking the 14-year-old in the chest, stomach and leg. He is recovering at a local hospital.
    14-year-old shot during Mich. toilet paper prank -- chicagotribune.com

    It looks like the homeowner though the kids were crooks trying to break into the house, which is understandable. What happened next is unclear, and the story doesn't help with clarity; but at any rate it may have been that he decided to open fire while they were still outside.

    What do you all think? Obviously, none of us were there are thus cannot know what the situation was exactly. From what I hear this was a rural area (not sure if that's true) as well so police response time would be lengthy.

    So if you all hear some people climbing on the outside walls, possibly on the verge of breaking in, what would you do? Keep in mind that its very possible this guy also had a family in that house to protect.

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    Member Array Bando's Avatar
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    What is there to say? The report is vague, the homeowner didn't identify the threat before opening fire. The only thing I can say is invest in a good flashlight and identify the threat before engaging.
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    Member Array LiveLFF's Avatar
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    I don't think I would shoot someone on the outside of my house, unless say, they were setting it on fire or something. Walking outside to engage a threat seems to me like putting your family more at risk.

    I dunno, teenagers tossing toiler paper around is pretty identifiable. Probably turning a light on outside would of solved the problem...

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    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    Did the TP come from inside his house? Was it a really small yard? Inside the city limits? When I was young, we always would wrap/TP our friends houses, not crazy strangers.
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    Shooting randomly at someone outside the home does not show good judgement...call 911 and let them handle it until the windows or doors are touched (at the very least).

    The TP prank is a stupid thing to be doing in today's climate of 'dirtbags gone wild', but it' not an issue to be shooting people over.

    In TX this might be a different focus, but knowing something about your target is the main point here.
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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Maybe the kids were TPing his house because he is the neighborhood "mean old guy"? In any case, while we have no duty to retreat and once they break into our MI homes there is a "rebuttable presumption" that they intend to cause great bodily harm or death, there is nothing that says we can or should go out to shoot someone outside. Find a defensible position, arm yourself, and call 911. Going out to engage multiples without the cover and concealment of your homes' interior? Stupid, even if legal (which it isn't).
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    Not enough info to give an opinion. Some say go back inside and hide in a defend-able room. I have personally witnessed (might of even helped) moving farm equipment such as wagons that could be moved quietly by a few guys, to be positioned in front of the doors so that they could not easily get out of the house. (practical joke). Lets say you are in the country 20 minutes from help. Something is going on outside, do you go look to see if they are getting ready to throw flaming cocktails at your house, or do you just wait inside till it starts getting warm inside.

    My house---I want to know whats going on, cause help is some time away. One day not so long ago I called the Sheriff office and was told no one was on duty for several hours. Not a good situation.


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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Kent County sheriff's Lt. Jerry Miedema says the teens were intent on draping the house in toilet paper, while the homeowner's "intent was to come out shooting."
    Probably an accurate assessment.

    What do I think? Where's the threat to life? Presence <> threat to life. What attempt to break in? Or, "bare" (unreasonable) fear (worry) of a possibility of a break-in which no facts supported?

    But then, I wasn't there. If you combine furtive movements, many people working and moving in unison, things in their hands, at 1am in the shadows around the perimeter of one's home where family members are ... The devil's in the details, if you're going to "come out blasting."

    I wonder if the homeowner identified the person, asked a simple question but got freezing, fleeing or babbling, or actually witnessed a subsequent violent and overt attack on himself by the "thugs."

    This guy's got a lot of explaining ahead of him. Think "reasonable man" standards.

    For my money, this is why the recommendations are often to stay inside, call the cavalry, and only "come out blasting" upon breach of the perimeter and entry into the house. People are safer from harm, all the way around, though at potential risk of thievery or damage of property (outside the home).
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    Greetings from the great state of Texas.

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    I agreee that the article is too vague to give an accurate assessment of the situation. I live 500 yards from the street with no lights on the outside of the house. If someone is on my property winding up to throw something at my house, he is an immediate threat. I don't know if it is a roll of TP or a jar of gas. Yes, I would confront him: spotlighting him with SUREFIRE in one hand and Glock in the other. What happens next is up to him. If he escilates it by continuing his agressive actions or charges me, he's down. If he turns to run, no shot to back as he is retreating. NOTE: in agressive scenario #1: no charges would be filed in TX based on castle doctrine (which even protects against civil liability).

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Is the kid a 'Terminator'?

    It took three 12 GA shotgun blasts to stop him?
    And he survives them to boot?!
    How huge is this kid?

    Beyond that though why people open their doors and leave the safety of their home to engage _unknown_ potential threats (as they see it) is a mystery to me and is tactically unsound. And I'll go so far as to say stupid.

    He hears noise and a person or possibly even multiple persons outside his home.
    Suspects it's a burglary. So he grabs his shotgun.
    At this point he's acting sensibly.

    Next he decides to go outside, opens his door, and attempts to engage the BG...rather than dial 911 and stay inside his secure perimeter armed waiting and watching for a breech as the police with BRIGHT LIGHTS and NOISE MAKERS come to play the role of cavalry.
    Not a sensible choice and act.

    Further the homeowner who allegedly was in fear of imminent danger to begin with, decides to step outside into darkness with just awakened from REM sleep poor night vision capability and he shoots at/toward a figure moving in the night.
    Poor and not sensible choices.

    The teens including the one who was shot should earn trespassing charges maybe even vandalism/malicious mischief.
    Without knowing more than what is reported the homeowner could be dinged with assault with a deadly weapon, as he does not reside in Texas.

    Agreed with others, get a good and powerful illumination device.
    Additionally install perimeter lights around your house for use at night even if they are just little night lamps attached to the cladding of your home front back, and sides. These can prevent your home from being selected as a target due to _visibility_ and can also save you a ton of this situation type trouble by being able to better if not positively identify who it is outside your perimeter that you are observing.

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    Member Array laeckcrov's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, from the little information i see here, this is the kind of guy who gives the rest of us gun owners a bad name. I'm willing to bet there is more to the story though. Maybe even something that supports the homeowners decision.
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    Member Array Glock23MI's Avatar
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    There is certainly a lot of info missing from this story. From what is given, it seems like the home owner jumped the gun. From my teen days of TP'ing, a turned on exterior light was enough to send all of us scattering. As stated above, even a flashlight would have ID'd the "perps". I wouldn't think a teen holding a roll of TP would be enough to bring out fear of life.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Just waking up from sleep gives you perfect night vision,I would have armed and peeked out the window to see what's up,white TP flying through the air is pretty identifiable,I'm thinking that this is a grumpy old man they thought they would play a trick on and got shot over.If you can't leave your home to confront a perceived threat in MI. this guy will probably get charged.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Duk,

    For me just waking from sleep give me hazy visual acuity and difficulty to see in the night.
    Discerning shadow and movement is one thing but knowing what and who is of the target and background is another. Even with adrenalin rushing.

    Hit a switch and turn night/darkness into day/brightness FTW, at and around home.

    - Janq
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    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Speaking from My days of youth. It doesn't say what the shotgun was loaded with. When I was one of those Mischevious Farm Boys that moved farm equip and large planks the farmers would come out and fire rocksalt at us. It wouldn't be beyond me to believe it still happens. Many farmers still load rocksalt in shotgunshells to chase away varmits. You shoot a Cayote with rock salt it stings for a long time and they are less likely to return.

    This was the standard less then leathel round in my early days in the hills.

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