Home Invasion Scenario - NZ Style

This is a discussion on Home Invasion Scenario - NZ Style within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK taking into account all my firearms are locked away in a electronic safe downstairs (due to our laws here in NZ), would the following ...

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Thread: Home Invasion Scenario - NZ Style

  1. #1
    Member Array heylin's Avatar
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    Home Invasion Scenario - NZ Style

    OK taking into account all my firearms are locked away in a electronic safe downstairs (due to our laws here in NZ), would the following actions work in a night time home invasion scenario.

    Its 3:00 am and 2 guys armed with a bat and knife burst into the bedroom (note I have a partner also) demanding cash and valuables to support their P addiciton.

    I explain to them that we store cash and jewels in the safe downstairs and to let me go down and open it.

    Both perps come down the stairs behind us and one watches over me while I go into understairs cupboard to hand over safe contents.

    The other is somewhere to the side, out of view watching over my partner.

    Our cupboard is narrow and you can easily conceal what you are doing in the safe, there also a loaded mag with 8 rounds attached to the top of safe (out of view).

    Whilst handing back ring box with one hand the other hand inserts magazine. On next movement I rack the slide and immediately and bring the pistol round my left side and fire 2 quick shots in centre mass, then turning completely round for a head shot.

    QUESTIONS: Could this turn into a hostage situation now ? or is the other guy likely to run scared ?. Can ear damage occur when shooting 9mm in a confined space ?.

    Hostage situations are very rare in NZ but lets say my partner managed to run off and get clear of the other guy and I enagaged him with the remaining rounds

    Now for the cover up as techinically they had a bat and knife, so I used excessive force.

    I tell poilce they were demanding guns and threating to kill us and that I gave the first guy plenty of warning yet he kept coming at me. The second guy was threating my partner with what looked to be a pistol (but turns out to be a replica Beretta 92 bb gun, which I happen to have :) and would conveniantly be found on the other guy.

    The guys on the floor certainly arent going to say anything so potentially I can make up (bend the truth) in my favour.

    The important thing is we would be alive.

    How would you guys\girls handle this situation given these horrible parameters and rules of engagement ?

    a) guns are in the safe
    b) potential for hostage situation
    c) need to dodge charge for excessive force as firearms are not be used for self defence, but consideration is usally given if there is potential for loss of life.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heylin View Post
    c) need to dodge charge for excessive force as firearms are not be used for self defence, but consideration is usally given if there is potential for loss of life.
    In this model, I am probably going to be on par with the BGs, and no respecter of law. If I shot them, they would disappear.

    Otherwise, I would probably assault them on entry with a 10" cast iron skillet lid as a shield(coincidently in the bedroom), and an 18" piece of rebar, or a machete(if legal).

    NZ may be "breaking new ground", but I would suspect will go the way of GB, where it is now impossible, in practical terms, to offer such defense as to leave oneself intact and in control of the scene (ie, one must take at least a nominal beating before "resisting").

    In those same practical terms, I would suspect that your situation is no different than that for cizitens of our coastal states- your punishment is entirely at the prosecutor's discretion. It is very hard to argue that one is not using "excessive force" when the operative words are, "but consideration is usually given if there is potential for loss of life."

    To answer your questions:
    1) anytime a firearm is discharged and you do not have hearing protection, some hearing loss will occur.
    2) a hostage situation may occur anytime the perpetrator feels it to be to their benefit- it is solely their choice.
    3) they may run, maybe not. no way to place odds either way.

    4) Re: the cover story. Bad idea. It might pass, but only if the cops are willing "to play", or they are incredibly stupid. Unless you and your partner are psychicly linked sociopaths, your stories won't pass more than the most rudimentary seperate questioning. You'd be better off feeding the hogs or fertilizing the roses, and staying off the radar.

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Are you kidding me? Not only do you plan to falsify evidence and make false statements to the police, but you admitted your plan online?

    If you do this, enjoy spending your life in prison.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

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    Member Array heylin's Avatar
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    Are you kidding me? Not only do you plan to falsify evidence and make false statements to the police, but you admitted your plan online?
    Its only a scenario, one couldnt say what I might do or not do. I certainly dont want to die, and certainly dont want to goto prison, but its a fine line here.

    Sounds like the best option would be to keep a medium stick under the bed, perhaps with a spear on the end, and reserve aspects of my first scenario if a firearm was involved.
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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    You have to be kidding me. What exactly is NZ’s law that requires all guns locked in a safe? If the gun is not in your hand when the trouble starts you will never get to it in time. NZ law does not let you protect yourself from a disparity of force isituation n your own home???? Once again you have got to be kidding me. If this is true I suggest you install some preventative measures to insure you can get to your safe before any home invaders get to you.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    So, according to the law, you are required to keep your guns in a safe? When are you allowed to take them out?

    If I could, I would be more likely to keep the safe in the bedroom. That way, if someone bursts in, you do NOT have to immediately kill them since you are already armed. If they only have baseball bats they will probably run away. If they do not, clearly they are a threat to your life.

    In your scenario not only are you bordering on murder, but you are also setting yourself up in a very bad defensive position. The BGs would have a very good chance of being able to kill you before you could do anything.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    I have to say that if I lived in NZ or the UK, I would just plan on moving to the states if that were possible - a state that has a "shall issue" CCW permit. I wouldn't put up with being defenseless in my own home and the government turning me into a criminal when I'm trying to defend the lives of my children and my wife.
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  9. #8
    Member Array heylin's Avatar
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    What exactly is NZís law that requires all guns locked in a safe?
    All firearms in NZ when not in use need to locked away in approved storage

    For rifles and shotguns, this is 3mm steel lock box or approved gun rack.

    For pistol and restricted weapons, 6mm steel safe with minimum 3 fixing points into concrete floor. They also prefer the safe is out of view or concealed in the cupboard.

    NZ law does not let you protect yourself from a disparity of force isituation n your own home????
    We are allowed to use equivalent force as required. ie knife vs knife, bat vs knife, basically hand to hand combat only. If perp has gun then youre pretty much screwed as the police will ask you how did you shoot the perp if you were storing your firearms correctly ?.

    So basically you meet the "equivalent force" and are not done for excessive use of force, but you are brought up on firearms charges for not storing your arms correctly, usually a large fine and losing your guns for life.

    Large fine and lose gun vs Being dead ?

    If anything a firearm in NZ is an insurance policy that costs you thousands of dollars to use and you can only do it once.

    Oh and if you have a firearms charge your partner loses her licence and guns as well, as you cant store them in the same house as someone who has had a firearms charge on them.
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    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    I like the move to the US idea. God knows we need more pro-self defense folks here.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    I think I've just removed NZ from my vacation list - what awful firearm laws.
    The most exhilarating thing in life is getting shot at with no results.
    - Winston Churchill
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  12. #11
    Member Array heylin's Avatar
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    I think I've just removed NZ from my vacation list - what awful firearm laws.
    Dont get me wrong, bar the self protection laws NZ is a great place to visit and id be gald to have anyone from these forums come over for a holiday and show you round this end of the country.

    We have beaches, lakes, rivers, caving, thermal parks, hot pools, great food and wine, all within 2 hours driving distance.

    Its also pretty safe, we have very few murders, home invasions etc, most home invasions happen during the day when people are at work and are usually people under the age of 25 looking for TVs, Playstations etc.

    Then we get all the petty crime like car theft, vandalism, assualt etc, but you have to be out late at night and in certain areas to run into trouble.

    Ive been here all my life and can only recall one time many years ago that crime has directly affected me (my car stereo was stolen).
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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heylin View Post
    Ive been here all my life and can only recall one time many years ago that crime has directly affected me (my car stereo was stolen).
    Which will be true for most "decent" people. The challenge is to be able to get in touch with the inner animal when/if the need arises. All I can relate it to is "flicking a switch". In your environment, frankly, you need to do a good bit of physical and mental training, and start looking at the world as a violent criminal would. Inside the Criminal Mind, by Stanton Samenow would be an excellent start.

    "When defense of self is outlawed, only outlaws will defend themselves..." kinda leaves a bitter taste in the mouth doesn't it. But true, in much of the "civilized" world...

  14. #13
    Member Array heylin's Avatar
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    Which will be true for most "decent" people. The challenge is to be able to get in touch with the inner animal when/if the need arises. All I can relate it to is "flicking a switch". In your environment, frankly, you need to do a good bit of physical and mental training, and start looking at the world as a violent criminal would. Inside the Criminal Mind, by Stanton Samenow would be an excellent start.
    Even though ive been quite sheltered from crime, I still take care to avoid situations that could escalate into a violent situation. Up against someone who was armed I think I would just run for dear life first.

    In a fist fight I would have no qualms putting someones eyes out with my hands, breaking neck or other bones. I did Ninjitsu for 2 years (Green Belt, 3 star) and was taught to fight dirty, no holds or actioned barred if need be.
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    Member Array 45MINK's Avatar
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    I'm impressed you think you can load the gun with 1 hand and rack the slide before the perp knows whats going on ???? It's not a realistic scenerio IMHO

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I would keep a loaded mag in gun in safe with a round in the chamber,downside is BG's may hold you at knife-gun point and tell them combination to safe or upon opening safe make you step back and put you on the ground,some criminals aren't stupid enough to let you reach in a safe without them seeing what your trying to grab
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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