Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? - Page 12

Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The woman who shot the agent was the wife, the mother was interviewed and lives down the street. As it wasn't a no knock, they ...

Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 28910111213 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 191
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #166
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    4,962
    The woman who shot the agent was the wife, the mother was interviewed and lives down the street.

    As it wasn't a no knock, they knocked on the door and ID'd themselves. The wife, knowing here husbands "business" [ and if you think she didn't have prior knowledge after his numerous previous arrests you are in denial ], obviously panicked and committed homice.

    The guess would be an educated guess that she was involved and there were drugs in the house which she didn't want to go to jail for. Agents IDing themselves at the door is not cause to feel threatened with your life, nor having shown intent to harm her. Both criteria for a SD motive.

    Home invasion with agents IDing themselves with creds? Possible but inprobable, and thats the way the courts rule when SD is ivoked, what a reasonable and prudent person would think. She was neither and I bet she gets it tucked up her butt good as she should.

    What continues to strike me as subjective thinking is your earlier statements without the fact in evidence that she was the innocent victim and the feds screwed up and caused this. That is unlikely at best. She lived with a known felon and if she wasn't involved in his activities [ unlikely ] she should have known about the court cases and prior arrests at the very least and the expectation he would be visited by authoritites again..

    Shes not the innocent victim here as you want to think, and no reasonable person would believe otherwise.
    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor


  2. #167
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    12,088
    I think there are really 3 different discussions going on here.

    1) The "lady who shot the FBI agent," justified or not.

    Who knows, sounds fishy, but can't tell.

    2) No knock mid-night raids; what would you do? Who knows. You never know till something happens.

    3) How best to protect innocent children and others present during some type of raid.

    It is the latter which concerns me the most. I'm unwilling to say it is OK to have collateral damage. Period. Notwithstanding the cute phrase, "war on drugs," the tactics of war aren't appropriate.

    The kind of high speed no-knock violent entry/apprehension which has concerned other in this thread is too dangerous for all involved, and the Cato data make the point.

    AzQkr, we won't agree, but I did think it would be helpful to separate out the 3 different things being discussed.

  3. #168
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    4,962
    "I'm unwilling to say it is OK to have collateral damage."

    So are a lot of people, unfortunately the variables are too many to guarantee none in every circumstance as the human factor can't be relied on to prevent the occurrence.

    "the Cato data make the point."

    What it pointed out was that in the last 30 years, the ratio of innocents being killed was something like 1/2 of 1% of the officers killed, and likely on the order of .0005% or less when all raids in the US over that 30 year period are extrapolated.

    If you can't accept that, okay, but it is what it is and you'll be hard pressed to legislate the percentage down further without endangering the officers further which isn't acceptable.

    "Notwithstanding the cute phrase, "war on drugs," the tactics of war aren't appropriate. "

    It's not so cute when you are the officer faced with making entry on violent felons at great risk, and your statement further demonstrates you don't have the experience of what that 2 minute entry actually feels like when you are taking incoming from barricaded suspects who are waiting to kill you.

    The men making entries and searching for terrs in Iraq is no different where violent people are waiting for you and trying to kill you. Are these types of operations considered war in Iraq? Yes they are, and no less so anywhere.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  4. #169
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think there are really 3 different discussions going on here.

    1) The "lady who shot the FBI agent," justified or not.

    Who knows, sounds fishy, but can't tell.

    2) No knock mid-night raids; what would you do? Who knows. You never know till something happens.

    3) How best to protect innocent children and others present during some type of raid.

    It is the latter which concerns me the most. I'm unwilling to say it is OK to have collateral damage. Period. Notwithstanding the cute phrase, "war on drugs," the tactics of war aren't appropriate.

    The kind of high speed no-knock violent entry/apprehension which has concerned other in this thread is too dangerous for all involved, and the Cato data make the point.

    AzQkr, we won't agree, but I did think it would be helpful to separate out the 3 different things being discussed.
    There is also a 4th issue. The orginal poster asked this question.

    "If your door is kicked in and you hear people rushing into the house, do you shoot first? Or do you take time to ask if they're police?"

    This is the question many of us are addressing.

    Michael

  5. #170
    Member Array MyNewNCHome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    18
    My response...

    BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG,BANG. ...click, click BANG......I think you get the point.

    Kick my door in.....wrong house, not my fault....I am protecting my family....

  6. #171
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    926
    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    ..........The men making entries and searching for terrs in Iraq is no different where violent people are waiting for you and trying to kill you. Are these types of operations considered war in Iraq? Yes they are, and no less so anywhere.

    Brownie
    Well stated.

    My point is - the civilian population is NOT at war with LE, thus we should not be subjected to war-time tactics. LE is in place to protect society, not "occupy" it. No-knock raids may be fine in times of war, but the last time I looked, we did not have a war here in the USA.

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  7. #172
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    4,962
    My point is - the civilian population is NOT at war with LE,

    Chevy,

    A more appropriate statement would be that the law abiding population of the US is not at war with LE.

    Terr cells, ms13, other organized gangs, LCN, and the hundreds of thousands violent felons that have not been captured are.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  8. #173
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    12,088

    Unfortunate viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    My point is - the civilian population is NOT at war with LE,

    Chevy,

    A more appropriate statement would be that the law abiding population of the US is not at war with LE.

    Terr cells, ms13, other organized gangs, LCN, and the hundreds of thousands violent felons that have not been captured are.

    Brownie
    This sort of thinking scares me. It is precisely how things get out of hand from time to time, and how bad things happen.

    It really is an us v them point of view, with a very grudging and limited nod to the welfare of the very large majority of good people.

    If you think you are at war, if you think war like tactics are sensible when dealing with criminals, you are not where I think the majority of ordinary citizens are on the issue (even the hard nosed armed kind on here).

    One day you will find yourself in great legal trouble. Or worse, in the wrong house with some guy like mlr1m or MyNewNCHome setting you straight--or their heirs' lawyers setting you straight. Or a prosecutor setting you straight.

    It sound like you have forgotten the part of your job description with the word "protect" in it. That applies to ALL innocent civilians and it includes children in a house, innocent adults in a house, and so on.

  9. #174
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,108
    To answer SelfDefense:

    Before you laugh too hard just remember that the incident that started this thread was a woman shooting a federal agent during a "no knock" raid. I'm sure this woman was a relatively inexperienced shooter compared with many of the posters in this forum, so never assume that the mighty LE teams that do these entries are invincible. they are human beings just like we are

    I think for all practical purposes, the questions in this thread have been answered and beat to death for the past week.

    Mods, time to close this thread!
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  10. #175
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    4,962
    "If you think you are at war, if you think war like tactics are sensible when dealing with criminals, you are not where I think the majority of ordinary citizens are on the issue (even the hard nosed armed kind on here)."

    I don't believe I am as most members here. I have 28 years on the streets staying alive against bad people trying to do me harm almost daily. I'm not your ordinary citizen, nor care to be, thank you.

    "one day you will find yourself in great legal trouble. Or worse, in the wrong house with some guy like mlr1m or MyNewNCHome setting you straight--or their heirs' lawyers setting you straight. Or a prosecutor setting you straight."

    Having retired from the streets 4 years ago after 28 years on them carrying a gun or two at times, your premonition would seem to be incorrect sir.

    "It sound like you have forgotten the part of your job description with the word "protect" in it. That applies to ALL innocent civilians and it includes children in a house, innocent adults in a house, and so on."

    Never suggested it didn't. Your assumtions and statements here further suggest your lack of the real world and the dangers in it or the fact we worked strictly within the confines of the constituional, state and local statutes. To suggest officers across this country operate otherwise is irresponisible.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  11. #176
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    To answer SelfDefense:

    Before you laugh too hard just remember that the incident that started this thread was a woman shooting a federal agent during a "no knock" raid. I'm sure this woman was a relatively inexperienced shooter compared with many of the posters in this forum, so never assume that the mighty LE teams that do these entries are invincible. they are human beings just like we are

    I think for all practical purposes, the questions in this thread have been answered and beat to death for the past week.

    Mods, time to close this thread!
    Why close the thread? It seems to me everyone is being very civil here. Even if a person disagrees with someone we can still learn from what they say if we are allowed to hear their reasoning behind it.

    Michael

  12. #177
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    To answer SelfDefense:

    Before you laugh too hard just remember that the incident that started this thread was a woman shooting a federal agent during a "no knock" raid.
    I rmember responding to your post but I am unsure of what you are responding to. By the way, it was not a no knock warrant.

    I'm sure this woman was a relatively inexperienced shooter compared with many of the posters in this forum, so never assume that the mighty LE teams that do these entries are invincible. they are human beings just like we are
    Inexperience does not justify shooting a LEO doing his job.

    I think for all practical purposes, the questions in this thread have been answered and beat to death for the past week.

    Mods, time to close this thread!
    I think Brownie's contributions have been extraordinarily helpful in understanding the LE side of both this incident and no knock warrants. I think Hopyard's concerns should be aired so they can be properly addressed.

    This has turned out to be a useful thread.

  13. #178
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    4,962
    "It sound like you have forgotten the part of your job description with the word "protect" in it"

    Hopyard, I knew I forgot to address this issue adequately due to the time constraints I was under at the time of my initial reply, but------- your presumption that LE has an obligation to "protect" you is incorrect.

    Research these cases to verify the fact police are not obligated to protect citizens:

    U.S. Supreme Court
    DESHANEY v. WINNEBAGO CTY. SOC. SERVS. DEPT., 489 U.S. 189 (1989)

    Castle Rock v. Gonzales

    As an LE, the oath I took and consequently the job description was to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

    The US Supreme Court has ruled that police do NOT have an obligation to protect the citizens of the US.

    "I'm sure this woman was a relatively inexperienced shooter compared with many of the posters in this forum, so never assume that the mighty LE teams that do these entries are invincible. they are human beings just like we are "

    Another example here of LE working within restrictive guidelines which puts them at unnecessary risk of injury or death upholding others constitutional rights, even when they are felons/criminals.

    You can do everything right and die as well as do everything wrong and survive. Again, this wasn't an "entry", it was service of warrant by the courts. It is errant to consider the two equal in how they are performed tactically.

    "the mighty LE teams"?

    I find that an interesting term sir. It's very telling with respect to your attitude toward LE in that role.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  14. #179
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Original question
    "Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?"

    Lets say the homeowner shoots the intruder. You're on the jury what would you do? Would you say the homeowner should be held responsible for the welfare of the intruder over his obligation to his families and his own?
    If I were on that jury I know it would take alot of strong evidence for me to rule against the person in the house. The laws in my state seem to protect homeowners over intruders and that includes all intruders.

    Michael

  15. #180
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    12,088

    Missing the point

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "It sound like you have forgotten the part of your job description with the word "protect" in it"

    Hopyard, I knew I forgot to address this issue adequately due to the time constraints I was under at the time of my initial reply, but------- your presumption that LE has an obligation to "protect" you is incorrect.

    Brownie
    First, I take it as truth that you worked the streets for 28 years and certainly appreciate that effort on behalf of us all. Second, sure, you have experiences that those of us who are not LE can not possibly have had, and yes we can't put ourselves in your shoes. But, I think you are not seeing yourself in our shoes either.
    For whatever reason, you are not tuned to the messages others are giving here.

    Let's look at what you wrote above. You of course are right, LE has no duty to protect in the sense you are speaking of. However, that does not mean LE can be reckless or careless or negligent, or act without adequate consideration of consequences.

    What folks are writing here in this thread is the idea that no-knocks are inherently too dangerous, and therefore when they go bad, there has been negligence, by definition. And also, don't blame the catastrophe on the innocent home owner.

    All I have been saying throughout this thread is a very simple idea, a simple concept. You have no right to endanger innocents, your uniform doesn't give you that right, and in the course of a raid the terms not-endangering and protecting are quite interchangeable. Not endangering innocent people with or during a raid is also protecting the innocent, and that is the sense in which I used the word. It differs from the situations the courts have ruled on which you cited.

    With that very straight forward concept in mind, I repeat that legislation is needed to better prevent the sorts of bad stuff which has happened in the past, to better compensate the folks damaged, and to make legal redress quite a bit easier for the truly innocent or their heirs.

    In a world where anyone can buy real looking gear and yell "police, warrant," while charging through a residence, there is no way for the innocent home owner to know how to react to such an event. Decisions by the innocent (and untrained usually) homeowner must be made in thousandths of a second, 100ths anyway, and this is an unacceptable position in which to place anyone. Doing so is inherently wrong. Collateral damage is inherently unacceptable to the rest of society; even if it is in your circle, which I doubt is actually the case.

    If you see nothing wrong with defending inherently questionable practices, that is your choice. I don't see it as a sound position.
    _____________________________________
    Slightly off the topic, I had (shouldn't use past tense) a cop friend who was nearly killed when DEA did a raid on a farm house of someone the cop was friends with, not realizing what business the guy was in. DEA had not notified locals because they thought my friend was protecting the bg, even though they had a tape where the bg said he would kill my friend if he ever got curious. My friend was frosted. Sure, he understood why things were done the way they were, but he was unnecessarily endangered, including by the fact that he wasn't informed that "his friend" planned to kill him.

    This little story is actually related to the thread, but I want it to sink in a little before elaborating.

Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 28910111213 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. A Minneapolis police SWAT team kicked in the wrong door....
    By DIXIETWISTER in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: May 9th, 2010, 11:15 AM
  2. Replies: 56
    Last Post: March 21st, 2009, 06:02 PM
  3. Middle of the night.
    By Pure Kustom in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: January 30th, 2009, 12:19 AM
  4. Its the middle of the night, and someone starts banging on your front door...
    By frankinstine in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: December 1st, 2008, 05:31 PM

Search tags for this page

arizona castle docterine

,

benelli 121

,

carry wife middle of night

,

door kicked in without no knock warrant in ga

,

fbi kicked in door in midland tx

,

no knock raid

,

where to shoot in the middle of the night

Click on a term to search for related topics.