Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tangle I don't think anyone is meaning to shoot anything that moves, but my goodness, the scenario is "...door is kicked in...". ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #46
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I don't think anyone is meaning to shoot anything that moves, but my goodness, the scenario is "...door is kicked in...". Hence given a specific situation such as this fairly well defined one, we need to address this specific scenario. E.g. kicking in a door is not something anyone would do to get in their house, i.e. the man's daughter 'breaking in'.

    Self-defense must be situation driven. We need to treat a situation where someone kicks in a door, much differently than someone working the door lock, trying to pry open a window, etc. In one case, the former, we have an imminient threat in our house. If he's a BG, he has no rules. Kicking in a door is a violent act by an obviously powerful, determined person. We will likely have to take action as fast as we can before we lose any advantage we may have.

    If there is enough light or artificial light can be brought to bear on the threat without jepordizing us or our family, then sure, perhaps that's the better choice, but again our reaction must be driven by the situation we face.
    I think this is excellent analysis. My only problem with the situation is being awoken from a sound sleep and having sufficient awareness to get my gun and [not] clearly identify the potential threat within the seconds suggested by the 'open fire now and deal with the consequences later' strategy. Once the bullets fly they cannot be called back.

    It seems to me a better strategy would be to make ready the weapon, put on the lights, defend the room and if the threat materializes then and only then identify the threat and put sufficient rounds on enough people to neutralize the threats.

    It simply seems problematic to awake suddenly and start shooting.

    All this is an excellent argument for an alarm system or, better yet, a dog so as to have more warning. If a car pulls up in front of my hose I will have more than ample warning before the door is kicked in.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duisburg View Post
    Exactly, regulation and taxion of all drugs would put drug gangs out of business and end territory fights between them, that way cops won't have to beat down doors so often and we home owners know to a more certain degree that the person barging through our doors at 2 AM will be a criminal. This makes my home safer, streets safer and would allow the cops to persue bigger and worse things. (totally tied guns and the topic into that :) )
    The only thing you get by regulating and taxing drugs is eliminating a crime statistic, not the problem. Drug problem is HUGE in Europe but since it is not deemed a crime, it does not get taken into account. In the meantime people still die, places still get robbed and cities have a regular pick up service (just like garbage) from the morgue to pick up OD individuals.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I think this is excellent analysis. My only problem with the situation is being awoken from a sound sleep and having sufficient awareness to get my gun and [not] clearly identify the potential threat within the seconds suggested by the 'open fire now and deal with the consequences later' strategy. Once the bullets fly they cannot be called back.
    I agree about waking up to a threat. I've done that with my burglar alarm (my dog Tangle shown in my avatar) going off. I did exactly what you said, except I confirmed my wife was in bed beside me, then my WML illuminated the doorway to the bedroom.

    Videos from prisons indicate that prisoners were teaching other prisoners that the best way to do a home invasion is to do a 'SWAT' entry, i.e. break in the door and rush to the bedroom.

    I do agree that coming out of sleep complicates the situation. However, again in the specifics of the OP, a door has been kicked in - no one in our family is gonna do that.

    ...It seems to me a better strategy would be to make ready the weapon, put on the lights, defend the room and if the threat materializes then and only then identify the threat and put sufficient rounds on enough people to neutralize the threats.
    Again, it depends on the specific situation but I don't think anyone is meaning that as soon as we hear the door break, we start shooting. Once we know the door has been kicked in, I believe I am justified in shooting whatever comes into the house for the short period of time following the intrusion.

    Based on your version of the situation, I'd agree, but what if we need to get to a child's room? We have to do more than defend the room in that case and we would probably have to fire on a known but unidentified threat if we know the door has been kicked in and we confront someone we can only identify as not one of ours.

    It simply seems problematic to awake suddenly and start shooting.
    Agreed, but again, we may be awakened by the threat's first unsuccessful attempt to kick in the door or something else that alerts us.

    All this is an excellent argument for an alarm system or, better yet, a dog so as to have more warning. If a car pulls up in front of my hose I will have more than ample warning before the door is kicked in.
    The whole situation might be avoided with a security system.
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  5. #49
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    It seems to me a better strategy would be to make ready the weapon, put on the lights, defend the room and if the threat materializes then and only then identify the threat and put sufficient rounds on enough people to neutralize the threats.

    For those of us with kids this is not an option. I do not have the luxury of waiting in my room to see who shows up. I have to meet the assault at the top of my stairs or the BG's will be between me and my kids. I have to go from sleep to violent counter assault in almost no time. I have to get to the top of the stairs asap and it is about a tie from my bed and from the front door to the top of the stairs. Anyone I meet there is going to be close, eye gouging, bad breath, knife fighting close. They get shot as many times as I can shoot them for as long as I have breath in me.
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  6. #50
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    Addition:
    If Flash Bangs and Tear Gas come crashing through your windows FIRST you can be fairly positive that it's the Police that are busting your door in and not home invaders.

  7. #51
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    I am getting to this pretty late in the thread, but here it goes.

    If someone comes crashing through my door in the middle of the night there is going to be lead flying. No questions asked. I don't need to identify the target, or any of that. You don't belong in my house.

    First my wife is not going to be coming crashing through the door. She will be in the bed asleep, or using her key. Second my 5 year old isn't going to be crashing through any door that I have in the house. If your not one of those two people your going to get shot.

    The other reasons for this are, if you come through the door to the garage you have in fact been in my back yard with the dogs barking and have gone through a deadbolted steel cased door from the back yard into the garage, then come through the wood door from the garage into the kitchen. I will be well awake by the time all that happens.

    If you come through the french doors leading to the patio from the dining area, you have been over my fence and into the back yard with the dogs barking the whole time. I will be well awake.

    If you come through the front door, you have had to break a storm door out to get to the front door and then break through that to get to the den. I will be well awake by the time you do that as well.

    Any of these entry points will take some planning, with either people walking around the house, or driving up and getting out of vehicles, ect. The dogs will be barking once that starts happening.

    Hopefully this scenario will never play out, and I never have to get into a shoot out in my own house.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    I had not heard about this Raid until recently. But Had I been still living in Pittsburgh I would have been on the Responding Medic Unit for this Dead agent. My Shift, my truck and my service. Weird to hear about.
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  9. #53
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    Shoot first, ask questions second.

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    If I have my .38 in my hands someone is getting shot!! Don't get me wrong I don't want to kill anyone, but you come kicking my door in like that and I'm emptying all 5 shots.

  11. #55
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    Mikey,

    I asked in another thread, how old are you? Please answer my question as my response to your answers are dependent on your age.

    Now, onto the OP's scenario.-----Hmm, this scenario is going to be a nightmare for the homeowner. I think there's a lot of posturing in many of the posts I've read to this point who don't have the first clue about what will take place here.

    Door kicking cops are going to be yelling their presence upon entry, they'll be in a stack initially, then breaking off into pairs likely [ depending on the size of the unit ]. A no knock is going to be dynamic initially and then probably will go to a slow and deliberate search of the premises if people are not met in the initial entryway or first main room they've entered.

    Many units don't have the proper training or the manpower to present correctly to begin with. If the dept does have a unit worth their salt, you are going to die if you present an immediate threat or fire on them.

    If they aren't that organized, you MIGHT get them to re-stack at the doorway with incoming their way and regroup, otherwise the next flash you see in your bedroom will be the last flash you see, possibly forever, unless it has the desired effect and you are taken down before your senses recover from that "noise/sound".

    If you are caught out in the open in the hall or a room, having had enough time to leave the bedroom somehow, it's going to be lights out pretty quick for the homeowner with a gun in his hand, there's no way around that. Sure you might get a round or two off, but you are going to go down for the count pretty quick either way. There won't be any "sorting" it out with them, or talking period. You'll present NO threat or you are going to be shot PDQ, thats just the way it's going to be.

    I've been on both sides of the coin here. I've professionally trained to enter, have entered drug houses, and I've been on the receiving end of the training as the BG. Any team worth their title and position is not going to leave you enough wiggle room to be a threat but for a split second, then two guns or more are going to be opening up on you at once.

    If it's the cops, your kids are not in any real danger of being shot in their rooms when the police enter unless they have a weapon in their hand. They are looking for adults, and dogs as immediate threats.

    It's a bad day/night for the homeowner/dwelling residents and almost impossible to win in this scenario if they are a well organized team. Lets look at the teams going into homes in Iraq looking for terrs-------the terrs don't win, they lose. Sure one of our guys might take hits, maybe two, but the terrs lose, and they are more determined, trained and better armed than most anyone posting here in a response.

    It might be nice to think you could come out on top and stop their actions till things got sorted out, but the chance of that happening is slim and none.

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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I think there's a lot of posturing in many of the posts I've read to this point who don't have the first clue about what will take place here.
    Anyone who has spoken with law enforcement folks about what occurs has multiple clues. It's overwhelming and immediate; it's coordinated and reasonably well planned; it's done with people well-protected against handgun caliber bullets striking them; and it results in immediate and overwhelming firepower being brought to bear against anyone daring to resist. (For those who haven't thought hard about it, what else would it be?)

    Door kicking cops are going to be yelling their presence upon entry ...
    It's not a matter of posturing about a legitimate law enforcement engagement. Let's be clear. It is NOT about a legitimate, legal entry by law enforcement. At least, my replies have not been about that.

    It's a matter of responding to an immediate, almost certainly illegal, threat. I am no criminal. I know this, if intruders do not. A reasonably competent and detail-oriented police force is going to know this as well.

    As such, "between slim and none" are the chances it's going to be legitimate law enforcement breaking into my home. I would guess that it's about 99.5% certain to be an utterly illegal and criminal act by criminals intent on doing me harm. (As some have posted, this sort of mistake by law enforcement doesn't occur very often.) Break-ins by murderous thugs occur far, far more frequently here than cases of mistaken identity on the part of legitimate law enforcement.

    In such an intrusion, I will strive to respond with as immediate and brutal a response as I am able to muster. If it's a trained team and they're organized and well-armed, than I'm toast. But I'll not simply do nothing and let my family be steamrolled into paste. It's simply not in me.
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  13. #57
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    Somebody busting down my door, I don't think so. Lead will be on it's way, no questions asked.

    If the FBI or any other department does a no knock warrant and someone gets killed, that's their problem, they took their chances going in, and if they decide to do them, it should be only for violent murderer type criminals, not drug heads or other non violent types. So what, they flushed it, call Rotor Rooter. It's not worth the chance of someone getting killed.

    I also think with any warrant they should be in a uniform that is identifiable to Joe Blow Citizen and not all black or camo.
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  14. #58
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    Anyone who has spoken with law enforcement folks about what occurs has multiple clues. It's overwhelming and immediate; it's coordinated and reasonably well planned; it's done with people well-protected against handgun caliber bullets striking them; and it results in immediate and overwhelming firepower being brought to bear against anyone daring to resist. (For those who haven't thought hard about it, what else would it be?)

    Resulting in my response about a lot of posturing by people in their posts about what they think they're going to be able to do against police who are well trained at the "game" of entry sir.

    As such, "between slim and none" are the chances it's going to be legitimate law enforcement breaking into my home. (As some have posted, this sort of mistake doesn't occur very often.) Break-ins by murderous thugs occur far, far more frequently here than cases of mistaken identity on the part of legitimate law enforcement.

    Can you cite the stats on criminals breaking down doors in your area, say in the last two years?

    Therefore, it's almost certain that an intrusion against me is a home invasion, a violent criminal act. I'll respond with as immediate and brutal a response as I am able to muster. If it's a trained team and they're organized and well-armed, than I'm toast. But I'll not simply do nothing and let my family be steamrolled into paste. It's simply not in me.

    I didn't suggest anywhere that your response to the scenario should be nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    As such, "between slim and none" are the chances it's going to be legitimate law enforcement breaking into my home. (As some have posted, this sort of mistake doesn't occur very often.) Break-ins by murderous thugs occur far, far more frequently here than cases of mistaken identity on the part of legitimate law enforcement.
    Can you cite the stats on criminals breaking down doors in your area, say in the last two years?
    I have no access to the full and complete statistics on such crimes in the region, no. Certainly not readily available at my fingertips for the asking. Since living in the Portland metro area the past 3.5yrs, my recollection is that at least a half-dozen or over the past couple of years has been reported in the news. In speaking with a couple of sheriffs in late 2006, I am aware of a handful of others that were not reported (out of the list of ones I was aware of). In Oregon, and with the DOJ and FBI, there is a failure to separate out "home invasions" as a distinct crime to be tracked, thus stats are elusive. By some estimates I have read, ~10% of "thefts" are comprised of home invasions, though that seems incredibly high to me. Beyond that, there are many, many legitimate entries by law enforcement on drug interdiction raids and operations to capture wanted felons.

    But I'll not simply do nothing and let my family be steamrolled into paste. It's simply not in me.
    I didn't suggest anywhere that your response to the scenario should be nothing.
    Perhaps not. But between the "haven't a clue" comment and other statements, it was strongly implied (I thought). Though, no more implied than the responses about violently resisting being clueless, or being assumed to refer strictly to combating legitimate LEO raids.

    Anyway. Agreed, that a violent entry is what it is. There are few options, no matter how you slice it. Either you suck it up and wish on a star, or you quickly respond.
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  16. #60
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    Perhaps not. But between the "haven't a clue" comment and other statements, it was strongly implied

    Those who responded as if they'd be able to keep the boogie men at bay and thinking they're going to win the altercation after jumping out of bed obviously don't have a clue [ if it's LE on a no knock warrant team with training ], but that in no way suggested there isn't or shouldn't be a response. Nothing was implied in that manner.

    Examples of probable haven't a clue responses in this thread:

    before I shoot I will identify my target---
    If I shoot in fear for my life ,hopefully a jury will realise that the cops screwed up


    Presumes you survived when you fired on officers-----not likely

    BUT my door kicked in i would moore than likely Let LEAD FLY IF

    Let lead fly?

    If someone kicks in my door, the perceived threat will be met with enough force to stop the threat.

    Demostrates the presumption a threat could be met with enough force successfully against well armed LE in team tactics by one person. Unlikely, and as stats show, those who've resisted and armed themselves against the raiding officers have died.

    A deliberate illegal forced entry into my home will be met with force until the threat has ended ... period.

    See above

    Violent entry into my home will end VERY violently, no matter how honest the "mistake" is.

    Presumes a win on the homeowners part, which we know from stats is unlikely.

    Any forceable entry into my home will immediately be met with lethal force. Period.

    See above

    yup, the target is who just forceably broke into my home

    See above

    BANG...BANG...BANG... If it is a real cop who gets shot it's his own darn fault for hitting the wrong house

    Presumes a win against the LE team that entered---see above

    at that point it prob. won't matter, if I am going down I am taking at least one more with me.

    That's not an acceptable solution to the problem, posturing

    If someone comes crashing through my door in the middle of the night there is going to be lead flying.

    see above

    Shoot first, ask questions second.

    see above

    As anyone who actually knows how these things go down in the real world, you may never get to your gun, you may not be able to respond fast enough cognitively [ why do you think they raid at O dark thirty to begin with ], you'll likely be overwhelmed immediately or they'll be a slow and deliberate room to room where any threat is met with a lot of incoming in the homeowners direction.

    No, the teams are not training for, are not preparing for one man to be able "win" against them. Their tactics and armament is meant to overwhelm and take control. One man with a gun is basically going to die if he attempts to use force against them or presents any threat to their safety. That's how it's going to be if it's the law dogs who come no knocking.

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