Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? - Page 5

Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzQkr No, the teams are not training for, are not preparing for one man to be able "win" against them. Their tactics ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    No, the teams are not training for, are not preparing for one man to be able "win" against them. Their tactics and armament is meant to overwhelm and take control.
    As I said, my comments about resistance were not related to lawful actions by police. They were directed toward the almost-certain scenario of unlawful entry.

    Can't speak for others.
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  2. #62
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    Brownie,
    A simple search on Google will show you that police are not only fallible, but can be hurt just as much as home owners. In addition to this, you will find "bad guys" breaking into homes screaming "POLICE!". I know how I live, and a simple yell will NOT stop me from unloading a massive wave of lead in the general direction of any one breaking and entering into my home.

  3. #63
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    KingPerformance,

    Your initial reply was:

    Shoot first, ask questions second

    If it is a no knock warrant at the wrong address by a 4-6 man team, you apparently think you'll be alive to be able to ask questions afterward. Do you really think you can take on a 4 man, well armed and trained team and survive?

    A better question might be, how many people [ an LE team or bangers ] do you think you can take out before you yourself are dispatched?

    A simple search on Google will show you that police are not only fallible, but can be hurt just as much as home owners.

    I didn't make statements to the contrary.

    A search will also show that when a team has been met with force upon entry, the occupant has been killed [ whether they were in the wrong house or not ]. Very few people are going to be able to "win" a gun battle against multiple armed aggressors, either on the street or in the home.

    You basically have two chances of surviving multiple armed aggressors [ 3 or more ], those two chances are slim and none. Given that fact, I find it hard to understand how you think you are going to ask questions later as in your first reply.

    Brownie
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  4. #64
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    I didn't bother to read all the posts here, but I did read a few; AzQkr is 110% correct. If you open up on any decent team, you will be dead before anybody ears stop ringing. Thats not meant to sound tough or anything else, wrong or right, its just the way it is.
    99.9% of the time that any homeowner thought about attempting any sort of resistance, they didn't have time to do squat but wet their draws. It happens that quick... there just isn't time for any time for hero fantasy's.

    I've done a number of entry's on houses when the kid has been selling drugs out of the house, or was wanted. The homeowners, usually the parents, were "unaware" of the criminal activity their precious junior was involving them in. Almost always, dear old dad does what dads are supposed to do, but simply ends up proned out before he even sets his Budweiser down.

    So, I guess what I'm saying is, it foolish to think that "leads going to fly" should a SWAT team comes in. Unless your extremely quick or lucky, it just isn't going to happen like that.

    Any team worth a lick isn't going to

    A) hit the wrong house
    B) Allow lead to fly the wrong direction. If it does, it will be over very quick... and there will be a definite loser of the exchange.
    C) Are not going to hit a house in the dead of night unless there is good reason
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #65
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    Scary situation all around. If they are BG and you hesitate you die. If they are LEO in the wrong house and you act you die.

    I guess that is a great reason to have a plan to hole up in a portion of your house, with 1 entry point. This way if it is LEO coming in you can see their uniform or badges hanging out, if that is how they really dress when storming a suspected house. If you see NO sign of law enforcement then you can decide to act or not.

    Thoughts on this option?
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  6. #66
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Guys we've expanded on the OP a bit, which is fine, but I think there are people talking about different scenarios. First, in the OP, the FBI agent was killed, the occupants were not. So the occupants did prevail in this case.

    Further, the article did not state a time the incident occurred and it was obviously not a 'SWAT' entry and there was no indication the door was kicked down.

    We can only presume the OP was stimulated by the incident, perhaps wondering what would happen if your door was kicked in the middle of the night, implying by the reference to the article, that the intrusion was an 'unannounced' law enforcement agency at the wrong address.

    From there we seem to be discussing several issues. So let's review: as the homeowner, what we would know is that an unknown person(s) has just kicked in our door - WITHOUT ANNOUNCING WHO THEY ARE.

    Under those conditions, I believe an immediate response is called for. Assuming this happens at a time when the house is dark, it is highly unlikely that there will be time or opportunity to illuminate and identify whether the men in black are good or bad guys, but there is no doubt that there is an imminent threat already in, or entering the house. The issue at hand, is how do we respond? Well, there's only two choices - shoot or don't shoot.

    If we don't shoot, we are betting our lives that one, this is good guys and we can surrender to them, or two, they are BGs and we can surrender to them and they won't kill us or harm/kill our family. But, let's keep in mind, whoever this is, they just violently kicked in our door to get to us and DID NOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.

    OTOH, if we do shoot, we may be killed by a trained law enforcement entry squad or we may be killed by multiple BGs - either way we're dead. Of course there is the possibility that if it is BGs they will be caught unaware by a violent defense and we may just survive; they may retreat.

    So now what's it gonna be? Assume the invaders are good guys and not shoot; assume it's BGs and shoot, gambling that we'd be better off to repell multiple assailents rather than to surrender our home and family to them.

    I presume we're working under the constraint that we don't know and can't be sure who we're dealing with - otherwise it's kind of a moot point. If I know it's a law enforcement agency then it's a no brainer - surrender. If I know it's not a law enforcement agency the it's more complicated - shoot and possibly prevail; shoot and possilby die in the process, or surrender you home and family and possibly die.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    First, in the OP, the FBI agent was killed, the occupants were not. So the occupants did prevail in this case.
    Did they? I bet if you asked them right now, they would say they did not.


    I agree, door gets kicked in you need to respond. However, you also need to be smart enough to pick your battles and not simply "let lead fly" when up against overwhelming force.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #68
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Did they? I bet if you asked them right now, they would say they did not.


    I agree, door gets kicked in you need to respond. However, you also need to be smart enough to pick your battles and not simply "let lead fly" when up against overwhelming force.
    What overwhelming force are you talking about and how is that determined when your door is kicked in?

    If your door is kicked in tonight, would you be able to determine if it was an overwhelming force or an underwhelming one? And, would you have time and opportunity to make that determination?

    Would two visible intruders be overwhelming? Three? Four?
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  9. #69
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Did they? I bet if you asked them right now, they would say they did not...
    I forgot to address this. The suggestion was made that if it were LEO the homeowners would die if they defended. I was pointing out that in this case they killed a LEO and were not even shot.

    However, as I alluded in my previous post, the incident and what we are discussing is two totally different things.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    What overwhelming force are you talking about and how is that determined when your door is kicked in?

    If your door is kicked in tonight, would you be able to determine if it was an overwhelming force or an underwhelming one? And, would you have time and opportunity to do so?

    Would two visible intruders be overwhelming? Three? Four?
    OK, its clear that we don't know how a SWAT team makes a dynamic entry, which a night time no knock is going to be.
    It happens fast. I've played the role of bad guy for other teams lots times. I knew they were coming in, I was awake, I had pistol in hand, knew how many and where they were going to come from and I am a decent operator myself... and still couldnt match force when a correct entry was made.

    Overwhelming force would be when two guys are standing in your bedroom with SMG's before your feet hit the floor.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #71
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK, its clear that we don't know how a SWAT team makes a dynamic entry, which a night time no knock is going to be.
    It happens fast. I've played the role of bad guy for other teams lots times. I knew they were coming in, I was awake, I had pistol in hand, knew how many and where they were going to come from and I am a decent operator myself... and still couldnt match force when a correct entry was made.

    Overwhelming force would be when two guys are standing in your bedroom with SMG's before your feet hit the floor.
    I know how fast it works. I also know that inmates are training inmates to use SWAT tactical invasions instead of the more conventional 'quite' entries.

    I think you are presuming that if it happens you will know whether it is SWAT, overwhelming BGs, or a manageable number of BGs. So, sure if you know what you're facing, as I said previously - it's a no brainer - surrender to the GGs and if it's BGs, we have to shoot or surrender.

    But you didn't respond to what you'd do if it happened to you tonight. And in responding, state clearly what you would know about the intruders, how'd you'd collect that information, how much exposure it would require, how much time it would take, and the probability that you assessed correctly.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I forgot to address this. The suggestion was made that if it were LEO the homeowners would die if they defended. I was pointing out that in this case they killed a LEO and were not even shot.

    However, as I alluded in my previous post, the incident and what we are discussing is two totally different things.

    It is two very different things, I dont know for sure, but I can only imagine that a lot of mistakes were made with the original story.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #73
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    In an earlier post Sixto laid out 3 assumptions and consequences:

    "Any team worth a lick isn't going to

    A) hit the wrong house
    B) Allow lead to fly the wrong direction. If it does, it will be over very quick... and there will be a definite loser of the exchange.
    C) Are not going to hit a house in the dead of night unless there is good reason"

    Of course we know from lots of news stories that there are many teams who are NOT worth a lick.

    Therein lies the horrific dilemma the armed homeowner faces.

    Sixto states that a team: " Are not going to hit a house in the dead of night unless there is good reason"

    And of course real events have shown this to be untrue.
    The first time I heard of such a thing was a news story at least 12 years back of a wealthy elderly man in CA being killed by a team at the wrong address. And we see stories like that here with regularity.

    Since the assumptions underlying Sixto's comments are INCORRECT, the question remains, how in the world to prevent tragedies. That is the goal. PREVENT TRAGEDIES.

    For law enforcement--- don't lie to the judge when getting the warrant; make sure only the intended target is home when you do the deed, and make sure the address is right. Don't rely on street thugs for your info. Find less violent ways to make the arrest or gather the evidence. It is worth the effort because the life (and career) you save might be your own.

    For the judge--- ask penetrating truth revealing questions; don't accept stuff on face value just because

    For the homeowner-- Dogs, alarms, lighting, make uninvited surprise entry difficult to impossible

    For legislators-- no knock has to stop. It is right up there with high speed chases and the past practice of shooting fleeing petty thieves as they ran, as acts of grand stupidity.

    Another issue: potential escalation of protection measures. Those most worried about such actions, including the criminals especially, are just going to up the ante by booby trapping entrances. I'm frankly quite surprised that we haven't read more of cops hurt when entering even unoccupied residences. Do you guys think the thugs will give a darn about the consequences of booby trapping?

    The issue is ultimately one of safety for officers and innocents, and the present practices don't protect either.

    Now folks, instead of posting here, sit down and write your legislators about the problem. They are the only ones who can effect a change. They can put limits on the when and the how of no knock so these awful tragedies don't happen.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    But you didn't respond to what you'd do if it happened to you tonight. And in responding, state clearly what you would know about the intruders, how'd you'd collect that information, how much exposure it would require, how much time it would take, and the probability that you assessed correctly.
    If it happened tonight, I'd be ticked. I got to sneek out of the house with a house full of inlaws to go pheasant hunting before the wife knows I've left on Thanksgiving morning.

    Really though, I'd let them come to me. That would buy me a few seconds, and force them to slow down. Other than that, I'm not to keen on posting about SWAT team tactics weak points.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #75
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    Tangle, I believe I read the report said something like 6am.

    I'm not aware of any team that isn't going in yelling "police" "search warrant". We can assume the BG's might use or have used the same verbal language to take the homeowners off guard long enough to take control of the occupants as well.

    I presume we're working under the constraint that we don't know and can't be sure who we're dealing with

    That was my presumption as well from the OP's post. If I'm in bed and the door gets kicked, I'm not leaving the bedroom. If I hear verbage of "police", "search warrant" or something similar, I'm going to have to assume it's the police and still take up a position in the bedroom where I have some semblance of safety from intrusion into the room.

    I'll be able to see as soon as the door is opened if it's men with the right equipment on, I doubt the BG's will have mp5's, subguns and be stacked as they enter or throw flashbangs. If my senses say they aren't the police, they get whatever I can give them to keep them out of the bedroom, and if they do look like the good guys, I'm going to drop the weapon/s and surrender to their authority.

    What I'm not going to do is throw lead immediately at the intruder/s through the door or shoot the first guy I see through the door. A decision is going to have to be made in a split second, and that decision is going to predicated on everything I know about situations where LE are involved.

    Speaking of which, one or two guys kicking the door will not likely be LE, particularly just one guy, no matter how they are dressed. If LE kicks/rams doors, they are going to be entering "in force".

    My question for the members who've stated they are going to start throwing lead immediately is reiterated--- how many think in a running gun battle against 3-4 people they're going to survive to sort out the questions later.

    Really though, I'd let them come to me

    While this was posted, I replied in the same manner. Hmm---

    Brownie
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