Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO It is two very different things, I dont know for sure, but I can only imagine that a lot of mistakes ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    It is two very different things, I dont know for sure, but I can only imagine that a lot of mistakes were made with the original story.
    I totally agree and am not in any way trying to place blame. But that incident is totally different than what is being discussed presently.

    A situation that we are presently discussing is quite complicated, and no matter what action one claims he would respond with, it can be shown to be the wrong response by manipulating the specifics of the situation.

    It is my belief that many, I being one, hold that if my door is kicked in in the middle of the night, AND I have no idea who it is, how many it will turn out to be, AND if I have the time and opportunity, I believe I'd likely fire some shots rather than wait to see what happens next. I believe this to be a reasonable plan. The alternative is to do nothing, e.g. hesitate and assess too long, until there is nothing you can do.
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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In an earlier post Sixto laid out 3 assumptions and consequences:

    "Any team worth a lick isn't going to

    A) hit the wrong house
    B) Allow lead to fly the wrong direction. If it does, it will be over very quick... and there will be a definite loser of the exchange.
    C) Are not going to hit a house in the dead of night unless there is good reason"

    Of course we know from lots of news stories that there are many teams who are NOT worth a lick.

    Therein lies the horrific dilemma the armed homeowner faces.

    Sixto states that a team: " Are not going to hit a house in the dead of night unless there is good reason"

    And of course real events have shown this to be untrue.
    The first time I heard of such a thing was a news story at least 12 years back of a wealthy elderly man in CA being killed by a team at the wrong address. And we see stories like that here with regularity.

    Since the assumptions underlying Sixto's comments are INCORRECT, the question remains, how in the world to prevent tragedies. That is the goal. PREVENT TRAGEDIES.

    For law enforcement--- don't lie to the judge when getting the warrant; make sure only the intended target is home when you do the deed, and make sure the address is right. Don't rely on street thugs for your info. Find less violent ways to make the arrest or gather the evidence. It is worth the effort because the life (and career) you save might be your own.

    For the judge--- ask penetrating truth revealing questions; don't accept stuff on face value just because

    For the homeowner-- Dogs, alarms, lighting, make uninvited surprise entry difficult to impossible

    For legislators-- no knock has to stop. It is right up there with high speed chases and the past practice of shooting fleeing petty thieves as they ran, as acts of grand stupidity.

    Another issue: potential escalation of protection measures. Those most worried about such actions, including the criminals especially, are just going to up the ante by booby trapping entrances. I'm frankly quite surprised that we haven't read more of cops hurt when entering even unoccupied residences. Do you guys think the thugs will give a darn about the consequences of booby trapping?

    The issue is ultimately one of safety for officers and innocents, and the present practices don't protect either.

    Now folks, instead of posting here, sit down and write your legislators about the problem. They are the only ones who can effect a change. They can put limits on the when and the how of no knock so these awful tragedies don't happen.
    You have to read and understand my entire post before saying that I'm wrong. Here is the key line in bold;

    Any team worth a lick

    I really dont want to make this yet another lame "no knock" thread, so all I'll say is that those who think they need to go away totally have never been charged with completing the tasks that the no knocks are designed for.

    And the only point I'm making is that if you fire on a SWAT team, the results are going to be bad. Please know what you are doing before you do it.
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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    Really though, I'd let them come to me

    While this was posted, I replied in the same manner. Hmm---

    Brownie
    It is kinda funny that the two guys here that actually have "been there and done that" in this thread are saying the same thing. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water...

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  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Tangle, I believe I read the report said something like 6am.

    I'm not aware of any team that isn't going in yelling "police" "search warrant". We can assume the BG's might use or have used the same verbal language to take the homeowners off guard long enough to take control of the occupants as well.

    I presume we're working under the constraint that we don't know and can't be sure who we're dealing with

    That was my presumption as well from the OP's post. If I'm in bed and the door gets kicked, I'm not leaving the bedroom. If I hear verbage of "police", "search warrant" or something similar, I'm going to have to assume it's the police and still take up a position in the bedroom where I have some semblance of safety from intrusion into the room.

    I'll be able to see as soon as the door is opened if it's men with the right equipment on, I doubt the BG's will have mp5's, subguns and be stacked as they enter or throw flashbangs. If my senses say they aren't the police, they get whatever I can give them to keep them out of the bedroom, and if they do look like the good guys, I'm going to drop the weapon/s and surrender to their authority.

    What I'm not going to do is throw lead immediately at the intruder/s through the door or shoot the first guy I see through the door. A decision is going to have to be made in a split second, and that decision is going to predicated on everything I know about situations where LE are involved.

    Speaking of which, one or two guys kicking the door will not likely be LE, particularly just one guy, no matter how they are dressed. If LE kicks/rams doors, they are going to be entering "in force".

    My question for the members who've stated they are going to start throwing lead immediately is reiterated--- how many think in a running gun battle against 3-4 people they're going to survive to sort out the questions later.

    Brownie
    In response to, "how many think in a running gun battle against 3-4 people they're going to survive to sort out the questions later." Let me begin with a question: how many think they would be better off to do nothing against a home invasion of 3 or 4 people?

    As I said earlier, 3-4 BGs are not a SWAT team. If one goes down from being shot, the others may retreat. It becomes an issue of how do I know in heat the moment how many BGs I'm up against, what my chances are if I start shooting, and what my chances are if I don't shoot. How do I determine all that.

    There seems to be a repeated effort to somehow 'know' what you're up against before you have to respond. I ask again, "...What would you do if it happened to you tonight? And in responding, state clearly what you would know about the intruders, how'd you'd collect that information, how much exposure it would require, how much time it would take, how you'd have the opportunity to collect the data, and the probability that you assessed correctly."

    And again, if we know who it is, it's much simpler. If we can't determine who it is in the time frame we have to respond, it's much more complicated and I believe the latter leans heavily towards shoot and ask questions later. If you ask the questions first, you may not be around long enough to shoot. And yes, if it turns out that it is an overwhelming threat, you may also die in that situation, but you don't know that you won't die if you do nothing.

    Finally, yes 'holing up' is a wise response, but that likely just puts off the inevitiable decision. When they start to rush the room your holed up in, you still have to make the same decisions.

    Plus, not everyone can do that. Add a family member to the mix and the hole up proposition goes out the window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    It is kinda funny that the two guys here that actually have "been there and done that" in this thread are saying the same thing. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water...

    I'm out before my blood pressure gets to high.
    So enlighten us, how would you handle someone kicking in your door in the middle of the night? Hole up? And let your family member fend for themselves? Do nothing? Come on guys, you ding us because we don't have your experience, so enlighten us, or at least give us some credit that we do understand our specific situations and do understand some things that will and won't be best for us.

    And, based on the two most experienced guys on the board, tell us what we should do when our door is kicked in in the middle of the night and we don't know who it is and don't have time to determine who it is and have other family members in the household that have to be taken into consideration.

    PS
    And BTW, SIXTO, I have been there and done that in numerous FOF scenarios that deal with these very issues. One FOF scenario was exactly a door kick-in in a home invasion setting.
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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    So enlighten us, how would you handle someone kicking in your door in the middle of the night? Hole up? And let your family member fend for themselves? Do nothing? Come on guys, you ding us because we don't have your experience, so enlighten us, or at least give us some credit that we do understand our specific situations and do understand some things that will and won't be best for us.

    And, based on the two most experienced guys on the board, tell us what we should do when our door is kicked in in the middle of the night and we don't know who it is and don't have time to determine who it is and have other family members in the household that have to be taken into consideration.
    I already have. If its a SWAT team, you're going to be overwhelmed proned out and detained before you even know what has happened. If its bad guys, there will be fumbling around all of them will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off and you'll have plenty of chances to defend.
    Commenting specifically what I would do isnt possible, it would depend on the floor plan, where everybody is etc.
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    Plus, not everyone can do that. Add a family member to the mix and the hole up proposition goes out the window.

    If it's the GG's, the kid/s or other family members will be fine and proned out unless they somehow become an immediate threat to them. If it's the BG's, your rushing into multiples to "save" them, you are going to be very lucky to survive to get to them IMO. If BG's, they may take the kid/s hostage, and try to draw you out. That's not going to be good for you either. It could also be that by the time you try to secure them, it's too late to do so.

    There seems to be a repeated effort to somehow 'know' what you're up against before you have to respond

    The more time I have to make decisions, the better [ hence the "hole up" mindset ]. Any action/response on my part will be predicated on that premise. Rushing a response is increasing the odds against your survival IMO whether it's BG's or GG's.

    I don't have family members I have to get to in the house. As such it's hard to say what a parent is going to try to do, but one thing I do think is important for others to consider is the longer you "hole up", the more time you have to make any decisions as to what is happening which will give you a better chance of a correct response.

    Just my opinion though.

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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I already have. If its a SWAT team, your going to be overwhelmed proned out and detained before you even know what has happened.
    SIXTO,
    I have no intent of being argumentative, not at all. Nor do I want to give the impression that I know more about defending my home than the two most experienced persons on the board. But it's not pleasant being treated as another uninformed, thoughtless civie that doesn't have any idea how to defend his home.

    It is also pretty unpleasant when some one over-simplifies a home defense method and makes it sound like any other choice is, well, again just an uninformed civie. Specifically, not everyone can hole up. Even if we do, are we not just postponing the decision? Or does holing up just make the whole issue go away? Did I mention the other family members?

    Then, didn't you say just a few posts back, and I quote:
    "If you open up on any decent team, you will be dead before anybody ears stop ringing. Thats not meant to sound tough or anything else, wrong or right, its just the way it is."

    In the last post you said, "...If its a SWAT team, your going to be overwhelmed proned out and detained before you even know what has happened."

    But I think you miss the point - if it's an unannouced entry how do we know who it is? How do we know when to start shooting?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    If it's bad guys, there will be fumbling around all of them will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off and you'll have plenty of chances to defend.
    Commenting specifically what I would do isnt possible, it would depend on the floor plan, where everybody is etc.
    My point exactly. Yet you make condescending remarks like this, "...It is kinda funny that the two guys here that actually have "been there and done that" in this thread are saying the same thing. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water..."

    And now you say as 'one of two [on the board] that have been there, done that', that "Commenting specifically what I would do isnt possible, it would depend on the floor plan, where everybody is etc."
    What'd you think we've been discussing?
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    Come on guys, you ding us because we don't have your experience

    I hope my responses haven't been taken as dinging anyone for their thoughts as that isn't the intent. I'm posting based purely on my own experiences and training only.

    And, based on the two most experienced guys on the board

    I don't think I'm one of the above, I'm sure there are others who have as much or more experience than I do here. I've got some experience relative this thread and have some insight to the options that might be available or may not be to me in my own situation, and what course of action will likely keep me alive longer whether it's the GG's or BG's, no more or less.

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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Plus, not everyone can do that. Add a family member to the mix and the hole up proposition goes out the window.

    If it's the GG's, the kid/s or other family members will be fine and proned out unless they somehow become an immediate threat to them. If it's the BG's, your rushing into multiples to "save" them, you are going to be very lucky to survive to get to them IMO. If BG's, they may take the kid/s hostage, and try to draw you out. That's not going to be good for you either. It could also be that by the time you try to secure them, it's too late to do so.
    Again, I ask, how do we know who it is? How did we gain this info?

    Granted if it's GGs, then yes, then the family members will be fine, but you didn't cover the part where it's BGs that get to the family member - could you comment on that possibility? Please include the likelihood of torture of that family member to force us to surrender.

    Quote Originally Posted by brownie
    There seems to be a repeated effort to somehow 'know' what you're up against before you have to respond

    The more time I have to make decisions, the better [ hence the "hole up" mindset ]. Any action/response on my part will be predicated on that premise. Rushing a response is increasing the odds against your survival IMO whether it's BG's or GG's.
    Rushing a response???? Our door has been kicked in, how much time do we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brownie
    I don't have family members I have to get to in the house. As such it's hard to say what a parent is going to try to do, but one thing I do think is important for others to consider is the longer you "hole up", the more time you have to make any decisions as to what is happening which will give you a better chance of a correct response.
    Parents can't hole up. I can't hole up. My wife's down-syndrome sister lives with us. If there's a threat, esp. someone kicking in my door, if I cannot determine it is a misguided SWAT team, then does it really matter how many BGs there are? How do I look into the future and determine that if I hole up this will happen, if I start shooting, this will happen, etc. I have no way to do that.

    I believe it is very reasonable and prudent to assume that if my door is kicked in in the middle of the night by unannouced persons, it is highly unlikely to be a SWAT team. It could be one to a dozen BGs, I won't know until it's over and I may never know if I die.

    But if I choose not to shoot because I can't determine how many BGs there are or what they're armed with, or how determined they are or what their intent is, and my wife and dog wind up dead, does it matter to me if I'm still alive? I seriously doubt, 'well you did the right thing, you didn't know for sure what you were up against' would be much consolation.

    Let's try it this way Brownie, you hear the door breaking, you realize your wife couldn't sleep and has gone to another room to read hoping to induce sleep, now what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    SIXTO,
    I have no intent of being argumentative, not at all. Nor do I want to give the impression that I know more about defending my home than the two most experienced persons on the board. But it's not pleasant being treated as another uninformed, thoughtless civie that doesn't have any idea how to defend his home.

    I don't mean to be argumentative either, and I don't mean to sound like a know it all. I do get frustrated with the irresponsible, uninformed replies (yours have not been) that make it apparent that some members come up with their defensive plans from watching Die Hard movies. With all that said, I always enjoy a good debate or conversation about these things; thats why I'm here all the time.

    It is also pretty unpleasant when some one over-simplifies a home defense method and makes it sound like any other choice is, well, again just an uninformed civie. Specifically, not everyone can hole up. Even if we do, are we not just postponing the decision? Or does holing up just make the whole issue go away? Did I mention the other family members?

    Yes, you are postponing the decision. Thats what you want to do. If you can make time be on your side, do it. Other family members.. that goes back to my that depends answer. I have no clue what the layout of your home is, where everybody would be in said scenario and what tools are available to you. It simply just depends on a lot of factors, factors that are different for everybody every time.

    Then, didn't you say just a few posts back, and I quote:
    "If you open up on any decent team, you will be dead before anybody ears stop ringing. Thats not meant to sound tough or anything else, wrong or right, its just the way it is."

    Yup, if you fire on them.

    In the last post you said, "...If its a SWAT team, your going to be overwhelmed proned out and detained before you even know what has happened."

    Yup, I said that too.

    But I think you miss the point - if it's an unannouced entry how do we know who it is? How do we know when to start shooting?

    Thats why you want to buy yourself some time.

    My point exactly. Yet you make condescending remarks like this, "...It is kinda funny that the two guys here that actually have "been there and done that" in this thread are saying the same thing. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water..."

    Because, I cant and don't want to spoon feed sound tactics over an internet forum. I'm vague a lot of times on purpose. Those who want to will pick up on the point being made, those who don't won't. There is no need to take offense in that, its a phrase. I put the info I'm comfortable with out there, take or leave it, drink or not. I don't care either way. If I'm right or wrong, thats for you to decide. I think I've proven over and over that I'm not full of crap, if not, oh well. I'm just other mall ninja then.

    And now you say as 'one of two [on the board] that have been there, done that', that "Commenting specifically what I would do isnt possible, it would depend on the floor plan, where everybody is etc."
    What'd you think we've been discussing?
    Both AzQkr and I have been there and done that, and we are both advising to buy yourself time in these situations. I'm not going to argue with you about engineering issues, as I'm not an engineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    And, based on the two most experienced guys on the board

    I don't think I'm one of the above, I'm sure there are others who have as much or more experience than I do here. I've got some experience relative this thread and have some insight to the options that might be available or may not be to me in my own situation, and what course of action will likely keep me alive longer whether it's the GG's or BG's, no more or less.
    I didnt say on the board, I said in this thread. From the famed Beavis and Butthead, "Words and stuff." "Words are important." Brownie is correct, its just about sharing experiances.

    I know I'm a bull in a china shop, thats just me. I call it how I see it. O/T, did you get a new pup Tangle? I've been meaning to ask about your avatar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Come on guys, you ding us because we don't have your experience

    I hope my responses haven't been taken as dinging anyone for their thoughts as that isn't the intent. I'm posting based purely on my own experiences and training only.

    And, based on the two most experienced guys on the board

    I don't think I'm one of the above, I'm sure there are others who have as much or more experience than I do here. I've got some experience relative this thread and have some insight to the options that might be available or may not be to me in my own situation, and what course of action will likely keep me alive longer whether it's the GG's or BG's, no more or less.

    Brownie
    I concur, my 'ding' remark was in reference to someone else implying you and he 'had been there done that' and further implied the rest of us were equivalents of horses that wouldn't drink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Both AzQkr and I have been there and done that, and we are both advising to buy yourself time in these situations. I'm not going to argue with you about engineering issues, as I'm not an engineer.
    You must have missed my post where I stated that I've been there and done that too - an exact door kicking FOF Simunitions, real-world scenario.

    I have no problem with buying time; that's exactly what I did in that specific scenario, but I'm not so sure anyone has said otherwise. I read the posts that indicated immediate fire was the action demanded by the situation as it unfolded, i.e. time has run out and other options are no longer available.

    I think you'll agree that there can be as much error in hesitation as immediate action. Which one is the correct choice does indeed depend on the specific situation. As I have said many times, SD must be driven by the situation, not some preset responses. To wit: one should hole up; one should buy time; one should shoot first and answer questions later, etc. All can be good choices and all can be bad choices. Even what appears to be a good choice in the heat of the moment can in the aftermath, be realized to be a poor choice.

    I can't honestly say that given only that a person kicked in my door that shooting as soon as possible is a bad choice. Based solely on that info to decide on, I think shooting ASAP is the right choice.

    We've discussed that if it's a SWAT team and someone, I believe it was one of the two that's been there and done that, even brought up it could BGs with automatic weapons. Well let's go with that and examime two courses of action.

    First, the BG with the full auto kicks down my door, of course there's no way in the world I could determine he has a full auto. I immediately respond by pieing my doorway and shoot him. The end.

    Second, the BG with the full auto kicks down my door, and I hole up. The BG commands me to come out or he'll start shooting. I hesitate and he starts shooting - full auto.

    Which is the better choice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I concur, my 'ding' remark was in reference to someone else implying you and he 'had been there done that' and further implied the rest of us were equivalents of horses that wouldn't drink.
    I'm not dinging anybody for anything! My comment was simply pointing out that the two guys in this thread that have actually walked through the threshold of an unknown hostile enviroment are giving the same advice! That should tell you something.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    You must have missed my post where I stated that I've been there and done that too - an exact door kicking FOF Simunitions, real-world scenario.

    While simunitions are a great training tool, its not the real thing. When its life and death, tactics tend to change a little bit. Nothing can compare to walking through a door not knowing if death is on the other side or not.

    I have no problem with buying time; that's exactly what I did in that specific scenario, but I'm not so sure anyone has said otherwise. I read the posts that indicated immediate fire was the action demanded by the situation as it unfolded, i.e. time has run out and other options are no longer available.

    If thats the case, then why is the question being asked?

    I think you'll agree that there can be as much error in hesitation as immediate action. Which one is the correct choice does indeed depend on the specific situation. As I have said many times, SD must be driven by the situation, not some preset responses. To wit: one should hole up; one should buy time; one should shoot first and answer questions later, etc. All can be good choices and all can be bad choices. Even what appears to be a good choice in the heat of the moment can in the aftermath, be realized to be a poor choice.

    Agreed 110%

    I can't honestly say that given only that a person kicked in my door that shooting as soon as possible is a bad choice. Based solely on that info to decide on, I think shooting ASAP is the right choice.

    Thats a choice only you can make at the time. Be prepared for the outcome.

    We've discussed that if it's a SWAT team and someone, I believe it was one of the two that's been there and done that, even brought up it could BGs with automatic weapons. Well let's go with that and examime two courses of action.

    First, the BG with the full auto kicks down my door, of course there's no way in the world I could determine he has a full auto. I immediately respond by pieing my doorway and shoot him. The end.

    Second, the BG with the full auto kicks down my door, and I hole up. The BG commands me to come out or he'll start shooting. I hesitate and he starts shooting - full auto.

    Which is the better choice?
    Well, if its a BG, the I'll take door number one. If its SWAT, a small box will be in your future.
    If your taking the time to pie, you'll be able to tell if he is legit or not.
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  4. Its the middle of the night, and someone starts banging on your front door...
    By frankinstine in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: December 1st, 2008, 04:31 PM

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