Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? - Page 7

Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Again, I ask, how do we know who it is? How did we gain this info? You'll have to take your best guess based on ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #91
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    Again, I ask, how do we know who it is? How did we gain this info?

    You'll have to take your best guess based on what you are hearing, hence the longer you wait, the more intel you may gather before they are at the bedroom door.

    Let's try it this way Brownie, you hear the door breaking, you realize your wife couldn't sleep and has gone to another room to read hoping to induce sleep, now what?

    If it's the GG's, she'll likely be quiet and comply. If it's BG's she'll likely be screaming my name repeatedly. That's just a guess based on knowing her as long as I have.

    Brownie
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm not dinging anybody for anything! My comment was simply pointing out that the two guys in this thread that have actually walked through the threshold of an unknown hostile enviroment are giving the same advice! That should tell you something.
    The advice I've seen is oversimplified to 'hole-up' and absolutely no advice has been offered other than that.

    Perhaps one doesn't need to cross the threshold of an unknown hostile environment, I have BTW, to realize there is more options available than holing up. Some of us are sharp enough to realize holing up is not a viable response in our situation and you have offered no advice for those situations, yet you critisize those that do.

    I have asked you repeatedly to advise us how to handle a situation where holing up simply isn't an option. Read my last post about the full auto scenarios, and give me your thoughts.

    Full auto not realistic enough? Then this one:

    Three BGs kick in the door. The choices are shoot ASAP or hole up. I maintain that shooting ASAP is generally the most prudent, protective option. Why? While it is claimed that holing up gives us time, no one has mentioned that it gives the BGs time also. They now have time to think, move, organize, get in advantageous positions, and execute. Their plan may be no more complicated than to spread out and cover every square inch of the room we're holed up in with bullets.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    ...If it's BG's she'll likely be screaming my name repeatedly.
    Yep, I have no doubt she will - until you comply with everyone of the intruder's demands.

    Sometimes immediate action is the best course.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The advice I've seen is oversimplified to 'hole-up' and absolutely no advice has been offered other than that.

    Perhaps one doesn't need to cross the threshold of an unknown hostile environment, I have BTW, to realize there is more options available than holing up. Some of us are sharp enough to realize holing up is not a viable response in our situation and you have offered no advice for those situations, yet you critisize those that do.

    I have asked you repeatedly to advise us how to handle a situation where holing up simply isn't an option. Read my last post about the full auto scenarios, and give me your thoughts.

    Full auto not realistic enough? Then this one:

    Three BGs kick in the door. The choices are shoot ASAP or hole up. I maintain that shooting ASAP is generally the most prudent, protective option. Why? While it is claimed that holing up gives us time, no one has mentioned that it gives the BGs time also. They now have time to think, move, organize, get in advantageous positions, and execute. Their plan may be no more complicated than to spread out and cover every square inch of the room we're holed up in with bullets.

    OK, I'll play the game.

    What am I armed with, whats the layout of the house, where is everybody else and is it carpeted or hard surface floors? BTW, full auto doesnt mean a hill of beans. It just doesnt matter to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Sometimes immediate action is the best course.
    Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #95
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    Bad results are inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    You have to read and understand my entire post before saying that I'm wrong. Here is the key line in bold;

    Any team worth a lick
    Yes, read and understand what I wrote too. The assumption of competence, of teams necessarily being "worth a lick" is just that, an assumption which has too often been proven incorrect with tragic consequences.

    There are no simple answers, but we do know that tragedy happens with all too frequent regularity, and it is past time that steps be taken to reduce the number of tragedies.

    That, requires legislative and judicial intervention. Like they say, "war is too important to be left to the Generals." Preventing no-knock tragedies is too important to be left to the police.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes, read and understand what I wrote too. The assumption of competence, of teams necessarily being "worth a lick" is just that, an assumption which has too often been proven incorrect with tragic consequences.

    There are no simple answers, but we do know that tragedy happens with all too frequent regularity, and it is past time that steps be taken to reduce the number of tragedies.

    That, requires legislative and judicial intervention. Like they say, "war is too important to be left to the Generals." Preventing no-knock tragedies is too important to be left to the police.
    There is so many safe guards in place where I work, and every other place I've been a part of, its pretty much impossible to get the wrong house. I have a hard time with seeing how it can get screwed up, but I've seen plenty of stupid stuff in my career too. Sometimes the wrong people are in the right house, but there is not much you can do about that.
    I guess my point is about No Knocks, done right for the right reasons, they are a lot safer for everyone involved. I've been apart of lots of both. In a dangerous situation, I'll do the no knock anyday... And its not left up to the police at all. Its left up to the courts, as it should be.
    A lot of the "no knocks" that hit the news and are quoted here are not no knocks at all. But thats for another thread and another time.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #97
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    Sometimes immediate action is the best course.

    I concur. The problem as I see it is we don't know if it is the best course of action and if it is the wrong course of action, we move into a kill zone with potential multiples and a very slim chance of surviving whether it's GG's or BG's.

    Teams don't know when they are about to search a room what lies in wait for them or what they are facing. They err on the side of caution and wait till they have more than themselves before charging in.

    I'd instinctively err on the side of caution and hope to discern more intel of their numbers from the commands/conversations I might hear as they move through the house [ I don't want to state here how I'd have an indication of that but I would probably be able to make a best guess if they're BG's ] while I'm holed up [ at least initially ].

    In my own home, in my bedroom when I hear the front/rear door kicked, I've got a shootie and a highcap within reach as I move to one spot in that room in my own situation that puts me at a small advantage of time to determine visually who has entered with the muzzle on them. GG's, I drop the weapon and surrender with verbals loud and short enough they understand I'm done with this, BG's get nailed and can't make it through the door even in numbers without getting stacked at the door like a cord of wood.

    If my wife is outside the bedroom I don't have to move out of that bedroom and into a scenario that gets me killed. Suicide by BG is not an option, and that may sound cold, but her only/best chance is not necessarily predicated on my rushing into the living room and engaging multiples/unknowns either.

    If she's caught in the living room/kitchen when the door is kicked in, and it's the GG's, she'll be fine. If it's the BG's, her verbalization is going to give me intel as to what I'm looking at, which gives me some amount of time to formulate a plan.

    I have a few options at that point, and the more intel I have is going to allow me to formulate more options available to me. If it's the BG's, it's going to be a rough night for everyone concerned. How it plays out is anyone's guess, but I know rushing out to an unknown number of BG's to save her probably is not going to be successful, another plan needs to be formulated. That's going to take some amount of time, in the meantime, one of us has an advantage for the moment [ me ]. If I can stay alive long enough, I might be able to help her and me survive. If I rush into something headlong, it's not likely going to save either of us.

    Brownie
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK, I'll play the game.

    What am I armed with, whats the layout of the house, where is everybody else and is it carpeted or hard surface floors? BTW, full auto doesnt mean a hill of beans. It just doesnt matter to me.
    Not necessary. The very fact that you've agreed that a reponse must be driven by the specific situation is enough.

    So, if we agree on that, how can we say shooting immediately is any better or worse than any other option? We really can't.

    I think we can pretty much eliminate that we're gonna face a SWAT entry team. While there have been some 'SWAT' entry mistakes, I would think they are quite rare. The chances of a SWAT team doing an unannounced entry is also highly unlikely. So, that leaves us with BGs, which is a lot more likely than a bonafide SWAT entry.

    I readily agree that some may have said something on the order of 'lead flying' without thinking much about it. I can't help but believe others, as they perceive the situation in their minds, believe that 'instant bullets', if you will, is the prudent course of action for the situation as they see it.

    Others, as they perceive the situation perhaps bit differently, believe it prudent to hole up.

    I tend to lean sharply toward the first response - stop a threat in my home ASAP. Even better, before he actually gains entrance to my home. That does not mean to go hunting all over the house for BGs. But, again, if the situation dictates, I may have to do something similar to that to protect a family member. I am firmly convinced if a BG ever gets to a family member, you will do whatever they demand.

    My point is this. We are no more justified in claiming instant bullets is any less of a viable defense than holing up is - it all depends on the specific situation. E.g. if someone is attempting to break in my front door, I have the legal option of shooting through the door, waiting for them to come through the door, or hole up and wait.

    Holing up can be the proper response sometimes, sometimes it may simply trap you. If the guy breaks through my door and I have the option of shooting the instant I have a clean target, I think it would be prudent to shoot as soon as possible rather than to hesitate long enough to assess who he is and how he is armed. If he broke down my door, he isn't a friend or relative.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Sometimes immediate action is the best course.

    I concur. The problem as I see it is we don't know if it is the best course of action and if it is the wrong course of action, we move into a kill zone with potential multiples and a very slim chance of surviving whether it's GG's or BG's.

    Teams don't know when they are about to search a room what lies in wait for them or what they are facing. They err on the side of caution and wait till they have more than themselves before charging in.

    I'd instinctively err on the side of caution and hope to discern more intel of their numbers from the commands/conversations I might hear as they move through the house [ I don't want to state here how I'd have an indication of that but I would probably be able to make a best guess if they're BG's ] while I'm holed up [ at least initially ].

    In my own home, in my bedroom when I hear the front/rear door kicked, I've got a shootie and a highcap within reach as I move to one spot in that room in my own situation that puts me at a small advantage of time to determine visually who has entered with the muzzle on them. GG's, I drop the weapon and surrender with verbals loud and short enough they understand I'm done with this, BG's get nailed and can't make it through the door even in numbers without getting stacked at the door like a cord of wood.

    If my wife is outside the bedroom I don't have to move out of that bedroom and into a scenario that gets me killed. Suicide by BG is not an option, and that may sound cold, but her only/best chance is not necessarily predicated on my rushing into the living room and engaging multiples/unknowns either.

    If she's caught in the living room/kitchen when the door is kicked in, and it's the GG's, she'll be fine. If it's the BG's, her verbalization is going to give me intel as to what I'm looking at, which gives me some amount of time to formulate a plan.

    I have a few options at that point, and the more intel I have is going to allow me to formulate more options available to me. If it's the BG's, it's going to be a rough night for everyone concerned. How it plays out is anyone's guess, but I know rushing out to an unknown number of BG's to save her probably is not going to be successful, another plan needs to be formulated. That's going to take some amount of time, in the meantime, one of us has an advantage for the moment [ me ]. If I can stay alive long enough, I might be able to help her and me survive. If I rush into something headlong, it's not likely going to save either of us.

    Brownie
    I know you Brownie; there's no way you'd hole up and formulate a plan if your wife was in imminent danger.
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  10. #100
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    I can agree with that. My point of contention is to know your limits. Taking on a well armed/trained team SWAT or not, probably isnt going to go well for the average Joe sitting at half asleep in his underwear.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I can agree with that. My point of contention is to know your limits. Taking on a well armed/trained team SWAT or not, probably isnt going to go well for the average Joe sitting at half asleep in his underwear.
    Oh, I agree with that completely. And if we know it's a well trained team that's one thing. The issue is how do we determine that in the dark, in the middle of the night, in the heat of a home intrusion, at the speed everything is occurring at.

    But, as I said in the previous post, the chances that we're gonna face a SWAT team, esp. a completely unannouced entry, is extremely small. There is a much, much higher chance that we could face a BG home invasion.
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post

    But, as I said in the previous post, the chances that we're gonna face a SWAT team, esp. a completely unannouced entry, is extremely small. There is a much, much higher chance that we could face a BG home invasion.
    By far. I think you will have a better chance of being hit by lightning than facing a SWAT entry. (provided you are a good guy of course.)
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #103
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    Its really surprises me at the quantity of 1-trick pony answers in this thread. Almost everyone says they are going to start shooting from the word go.

    Its your castle alright, but I doubt that folks are as ready as they think they are for the front door to come crashing open. During the day, I think you might see that its the police before you are able to start firing. I mean really, how good are your reflexes for such an unexpected event? If I heard a BANG and then turned to see guys in black tactical gear storming in, I might have enough time to process what happened and to raise my hands, not go for my gun. There were several comments made about BG's dressing like the police. Really, what are the odds? Bad raid notwithstanding. I wouldn't consider it. Second, if this happens at night while you are asleep, I would be willing to bet that most are not going to be able to get out of bed let alone get armed and ready by the time a team makes it to your room. If this is a raid gone bad, I would hope for the fact that they are as fast as SIXTO describes; it would probably save my life.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    So, I guess what I'm saying is, it foolish to think that "leads going to fly" should a SWAT team comes in. Unless your extremely quick or lucky, it just isn't going to happen like that.
    You mean tactical teams don't kick the door in, then wait around outside a few minutes to give the occupants a chance to get dressed and armed?

    I say, that's just unsporting.

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    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  15. #105
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    I know you Brownie; there's no way you'd hole up and formulate a plan if your wife was in imminent danger.

    Probably right Tangle, but at the same time, I think it would be a mistake to rush out as well.

    Brownie
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