Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO ...did you get a new pup Tangle? I've been meaning to ask about your avatar. Sorry in the heat of the ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    ...did you get a new pup Tangle? I've been meaning to ask about your avatar.
    Sorry in the heat of the battle, I missed that.

    Actually I got 'Tangle' about 11 - 12 years ago. I think she's the best dog in the world. I suppose every dog owner feels that way - if they don't then shame on them.

    My wife called me one day and asked if I'd like to have a cute little dog. Without hesitation, I said, "No!" She said, "Well, we need to pick it up by six o'clock."

    I struggled with a name for this energetic, 20 lb pup (about a year old). When I was out with her, either she woud be tangled up in my feet or have her leash tangled up around my legs - so I named her Tangle.

    When gun boards started springing up I was trying to come up with a 'net' name and decided that I could do no better that the name of my best friend and loyal companion.

    When I first got her she had so much energy, I thought there was two dogs. She's calmed down a lot now, but she's as spry as she ever was, just doesn't have as much endurance.

    She got hit by a car about 120 feet from our house one night and managed to drag herself back to the back yard and barked for my wife. We took her to the vet and learned that she had a crushed pelvis but should be back to normal in about six weeks. She couldn't get up without excrutiating pain. Sometimes she'd just urinate without getting up and I couldn't move her to clean her up. I slept on a pad right beside her for six long weeks; everything I did, I tried to do in the room where she was.

    In six weeks she could barely get up, much less back to normal. But she did recover - fully. Sometimes I question my selfishness in making her go through that pain for so long.

    Well, that's my Tangle story.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I know you Brownie; there's no way you'd hole up and formulate a plan if your wife was in imminent danger.

    Probably right Tangle, but at the same time, I think it would be a mistake to rush out as well.

    Brownie
    Just as it'd be a mistake to plan too long.
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  4. #108
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    Gosh, it's got quite suddenly - something I said?
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  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Gosh, it's got quite suddenly - something I said?
    Ahh, yeah, I promised to boss lady I'd help get the house ready for the inlaws. I'm trying to do stuff, watch the kids and surf here. It isnt working out to well.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #110
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    well, it seems like a pretty good debate has fired up on this topic when moderators and members alike are going back and forth on what to do. here's what i think:

    I think the mods are right about staying on topic. This is not about the legalizing drugs debate.

    I think "no knock" warrants have their place. If you are dealing with violent drug gang hideouts and you know there is a lot of firepower and drugs inside, then so be it. A family home with kids inside? That gives a moment of pause. After a thorough investigation is done, my guess is that the powers that be are going to rule this as pretty bad tactics applied in this particular incident.

    As for my home, there is nothing illegal going on here unless you call the strict application of a wooden paddle (ventilated for enhanced velocity-to-target) on an unruly boys backside child abuse. All our bedrooms are upstairs, and we have a very loud security system in place with clearly posted signs in the yard. the only drugs within are over the counter or legally prescribed by a doctor. As far as my neighbors are concerned, they are mostly senior citizen retired military ex-colonels and their families. It is a very nice neighborhood and we are the first "new" family to move in on the block in 20 years, so everybody is pretty tight. There is also a local police captain that lives 2 doors down who runs the substation less than a quarter mile down the road.

    So i would hope that our local PD would use a little common sense before they went and started kicking down doors, especially mine. As for myself, i regularly practice flying out of bed and responding to percieved threats. We had as close to the real thing happen as possible just last week when my daughter came in with 2 of her sorority sisters after a night of drinking (330am). they had forgotten that we set the alarm for "home" mode, so when they opened the front door the alarm went off.

    My response time? Who knows, but I was waiting at the top of the stairs with my Surefire 6P and blinded them with it by the time they reached the stairs. the 6P is attached to my Benelli M1, so they got quite a fright......

    I feel for anybody who wants to kick in my door....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  7. #111
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    I guess the problem I am seeing with threads of this nature is the two different backgrounds that come out on these threads.

    First you have law abiding citizens that are in their homes and have no reason to believe that any law enforcement officials would be executing a no knock warrant on their house in the middle of the night, or that there would be a legitimate reason for someone breaking through a door. Basically for us it boils down to if someone comes through our door they are up to no good, and the family needs to be protected.

    Next you have the LEO's or others that have engaged in these door busting busts and know that there are people in the house that are bad and might be trying to shoot back at them or do something else that is going to endanger them or their team.

    Personally I think both are right, and it is very rare and unfortunate when the two converge. As Sixto has pointed out when they operate, it should never be at the wrong house, although in a few instances it has happened nationally. If we who are not in the business of busting BG doors, follow the premise that we aren't going to be mistaken for a BG house, then we should be very willing to take up arms against anyone who comes busting down our door in the middle of the night to protect ourselves and our families.

    I think all too often these threads get twisted into how bad no knocks are from the non LEO's and whether or not a homeowner stands a chance against a skilled team from the LEO's. The facts are out there on both sides of this that support that sometimes no knocks are done improperly, and sometimes the homeowner gets the better of the LEO's. Neither is anything to be bragging about as both can and have ended tragically for innocent people.

    I am just glad that I know some of the Lt's, detectives, and other officers on our local PD, and they know where I live, and that hopefully there is never a mixup where I or them would be faced with the possibilty of shooting one another. I plan on keeping my nose clean so they don't come looking for me, and I trust that they will do their jobs sufficiently to not come busting in my door.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    So i would hope that our local PD would use a little common sense before they went and started kicking down doors, especially mine. As for myself, i regularly practice flying out of bed and responding to percieved threats. We had as close to the real thing happen as possible just last week when my daughter came in with 2 of her sorority sisters after a night of drinking (330am). they had forgotten that we set the alarm for "home" mode, so when they opened the front door the alarm went off.

    My response time? Who knows, but I was waiting at the top of the stairs with my Surefire 6P and blinded them with it by the time they reached the stairs. the 6P is attached to my Benelli M1, so they got quite a fright......

    I feel for anybody who wants to kick in my door....
    I dont want to fire up the debate again, but this is exactly what I was talking about.
    You cant compare a SWAT entry to what a couple of teenage girls would do, or even bad guys. SWAT isnt going to simply kick in the front door and come on in. If it were to happen, you wouldnt know which way was which and it would be over before it even began.

    I think what edr9x23super was perfectly resonable for the situation, I would have done the same most likely.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #113
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    It's been a lively debate hasn't it?

    Getting people to think is good.

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  10. #114
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    Again, some legislation is needed

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    There is so many safe guards in place where I work, and every other place I've been a part of, its pretty much impossible to get the wrong house. I have a hard time with seeing how it can get screwed up, but I've seen plenty of stupid stuff in my career too. .
    Look, I'm not trying to turn this into a "lame no-knock" thread. I am not naive. I understand that there are circumstances where no-knock is important.

    But, as you note, screw ups happen. So, what to do?

    First, we need our legislators to give innocent homeowners protection from prosecution. Yelling "police," or wearing uniforms which might have been purchased off the internet or stolen, is NOT sufficient or fair notice in today's world. As amply discussed, the thugs know the same trick.

    If a team is at a wrong house, the adverse consequences belong on them and not on the home defender. That is how it works when your drunk neighbor mistakenly enters your home at 1 A.M. And it shouldn't be any different if it is the police who are confused.

    Prosecutors and Judges need some legislative direction in this area. The mere fact that the police identified themselves should not turn the innocent defender into a criminal.

    Second, for reasons of ordinary decency and humanity, these no-knock things shouldn't be done (except in the most extreme circumstances) and then not if any of the following circumstances exist:

    a) no young children in the home;
    b) no sick, disabled, elderly, present;
    c) no innocent spouse or third party present.

    Third, there needs to be strict liability for the municipality or other authority under whose jurisdiction the error occurred. It should not take 15 years of litigation for justice to happen.

    You know, it is a funny thing. I almost never read of horrifically bad errors by bondsmen. Yeah, they happen, the worst I recall was some gal being kidnapped from Georgia or Miss and taken to Chicago; mistaken ID. But, the reason we don't have widespread errors in these apprehensions is that the bondsman makes money ONLY when he gets it right; and loses like crazy when he gets it wrong.

    As things stand now, typically, the big loser is the innocent homeowner who is either killed, maimed, left suffering from PTSD, and if unlucky, also charged with a crime that started with someone else's error. There is no incentive for authorities to get it right, and there is no justice in that.

    My view isn't anti-police, it isn't pro-thug. It is just a plea for reasonableness.

    And again, as we discuss it here, the answer won't be found through our complaints here. Those are OK, but writing or visiting your state legislator is a better use of your time if you want to solve the problem.

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post

    I think all too often these threads get twisted into how bad no knocks are from the non LEO's and whether or not a homeowner stands a chance against a skilled team from the LEO's. The facts are out there on both sides of this that support that sometimes no knocks are done improperly, and sometimes the homeowner gets the better of the LEO's. Neither is anything to be bragging about as both can and have ended tragically for innocent people.
    Believe me, my statements are not bragging. The last thing I want is to hurt an innocent person. But I've said the things I've said to make the point that if it were a SWAT entry, dont worry about being John Wayne chances are you wont have the chance to be anyway.

    Hopyard, the legislation you want is already there for the most part. And a PD does lose big time when its the wrong house. I'm not sure what your talking about.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Believe me, my statements are not bragging. The last thing I want is to hurt an innocent person. But I've said the things I've said to make the point that if it were a SWAT entry, dont worry about being John Wayne chances are you wont have the chance to be anyway.
    If this is the case, and I will take your word for it since I have neither participated on your end or been the recipient of such a visit, but then this doesn't fit into the scenario presented by the OP. Simply if your not going to have the time of ability to defend yourself then there is no room for defense. That was not the case in the related link, since apparently the BG drug dealers did additional bad things to cost the FBI fellow his life. May the BG rot in hell for that.

    Based on the OP and my understanding of the question posed, there is time and ability for defense by the homeowner and that is what my original post dealt with. It was directed at what I would do if I were aware that someone was making entry into my home in the middle of the night.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #117
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    [QUOTE=Based on the OP and my understanding of the question posed, there is time and ability for defense by the homeowner and that is what my original post dealt with. It was directed at what I would do if I were aware that someone was making entry into my home in the middle of the night.[/QUOTE]

    The warrant was served at about 6am. It wasn't a no knock entry from what I read, and the factual evidence of exactly how much time the occupants had notice of their serving the warrant was not discussed.

    We can't assume that situation is relevant to the idea that if the team goes in at O dark 30, the occupants will have the same notice of intent to serve/search or be able to respond as the occupant did in the link that got the fed killed.

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  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post


    BANG...BANG...BANG... If it is a real cop who gets shot it's his own darn fault for hitting the wrong house

    Presumes a win against the LE team that entered---see above
    The only presumption in that statement is that I will actually get shots off. Should I presume failure and not even try? By creatively quoting you left off the rest of my statement that said I hope I survive. If it is a trained entry team survival is not likely as we both know.

    With that said, I train regularly (sometimes with an FBI swat guy from PGH) and I put thousands of rounds down range each year. I have had training in the military, and while I've never had to shoot anyone I'm familiar with what it is like to be under fire. I have the advantage of knowing the terrain (so to speak), I hold the high ground and I have a plan in place for just such an occurrence (home invasion, not a swat team). I also have a baby gate that we close at night * at the bottom and the top of my stairs creating obstacles that would slow down anyone trying to reach my second floor (giving me more time). Is it really such a stretch to think that I could defend a chokepoint (gated stairs) against a couple of regular Joes. I think not. I honestly think that even if it was a swat team I would have the time to be able to get my gun in play. I know, I know I'd end up KIA, but when someone is smashing down my door I have to assume (as a law abiding kinda guy) that it's bad guys not cops.


    ETA: The above mention of a plan makes no allowance for a dynamic entry through my upstairs windows as well as the front door.


    * baby gates get closed when I go to bed last. Somehow when my wife is last they don't always get shut.
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  15. #119
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    "It is obvious (as posted above) the catalyst for this thread was the slain FBI agent in Pgh. CLEARLY the resident WAS able to shoot back (or first) in this case. As you know not all warrants are served by highly trained swat teams, and sadly an agent was killed. Entry teams do make mistakes as well."

    Again, it wasn't clear in the reporting but it doesn't smell of a no knock warrant , where the door was busted down, where the resident was surprised by their presence. She had time to arm herself like anyone would who had the means to do so, given the same scenario.

    You can certainly defend a choke point. If you can get the gun into play and defend that choke point, why the comment of

    "BANG...BANG...BANG... If it is a real cop who gets shot it's his own darn fault for hitting the wrong house"? In one statement, you've been surprised and don't know who it is or have time to determine if it's LE, in the next, you state you could defend the choke point, in which case you'd have enough time to visually see it was a raiding team armed accordingly and not BG's, unless the presumption here is that the BG's also have the same access to the equipment like subguns, etc, which while possible is an even bigger stretch than BG's stacking, yelling like their cops.

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  16. #120
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    From the first post in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Hopyard, the legislation you want is already there for the most part. And a PD does lose big time when its the wrong house. I'm not sure what your talking about.
    The op wrote: "Parker says Korbe "had a weapon" when authorities came to her Indiana Township home, roughly 10 miles northeast of Pittsburgh, about 6 a.m. "She made a decision based on her prior experiences in the neighborhood," Parker says. "She may have believed it was the appropriate course of action."

    Assuming that Korbe was innocent (not a drug dealer/user etc.) and made the decision as suggested based on experiences in the neighborhood, she should not have been charged.

    This initial example is what I was talking about, and it is a good example which shows that at least in the instance reported, there is insufficient legal protections for an innocent present when the raid occurrs.

    We could argue endlessly, but as Farronw. said, we are looking at this from two different perspectives. The answer isn't with my opinion, or with yours, but with better legislation controlling these sorts of activities.

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