Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? - Page 9

Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

This is a discussion on Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Arizona, we have this thing called the Castle Docterine that will allow you to jump immediately to lethal force IF, and ONLY IF, there ...

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Thread: Middle of night - door is kicked in - do you shoot?

  1. #121
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    In Arizona, we have this thing called the Castle Docterine that will allow you to jump immediately to lethal force IF, and ONLY IF, there is a legitimate fear or serious injury or death. With that said, if you fear for your life, you are legally allowed to shoot...but why not just pick up some Pepper Spray or an ultrabright flashlight to simply immobilize your "invader". Just because you can shoot someone, doesn't mean you should...
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  2. #122
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    Parker is her atty.

    You didn't expect anything less from him about his clients mindset did you?

    I wonder how many from the hood she's seen wearing a sport jacket and clean cut as well like the agent? Her and her attys story is BS

    The spin doctors/lawyers are at work on this right away, to put her in light of a disadvantaged homeowner, yet the report said she knew her son wasn't always the most upstanding citizen [ and then states he's a good boy in the same breath ? ].

    She admits he's up to no good at least part of the time, and then the mother in her kicks in and wants everyone to think he's a good boy. If he was a good boy, she likely wouldn't have agents serving a warrant at her home to begin with.

    Brownie
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "It is obvious (as posted above) the catalyst for this thread was the slain FBI agent in Pgh. CLEARLY the resident WAS able to shoot back (or first) in this case. As you know not all warrants are served by highly trained swat teams, and sadly an agent was killed. Entry teams do make mistakes as well."

    You are too fast. I deleted this right away after reading the post you had made when I was typing.

    "BANG...BANG...BANG... If it is a real cop who gets shot it's his own darn fault for hitting the wrong house"? In one statement, you've been surprised and don't know who it is or have time to determine if it's LE, in the next, you state you could defend the choke point, in which case you'd have enough time to visually see it was a raiding team armed accordingly and not BG's, unless the presumption here is that the BG's also have the same access to the equipment like subguns, etc, which while possible is an even bigger stretch than BG's yelling like their cops.

    Brownie
    You make a good point (in bold). My assumption is that if it is bad guys or just regular Joe cops I get to the top of my choke point first and am able to stop some or all of them. I would have no reason to think that it was the police entering my house and I would assume it's BG's dressed as cops. As to the entry team guys armed as such I think I would have allot less time to see what they are carrying. Again I'll say that the idea of cops hitting my house would be so inconceivable to me that I don't think it would even register on my brain what they were carrying. We would meet at the top of my stairs and I would shoot the first guy (maybe) and in turn be shot (surely). Hence the for as long as I have breath in me comment. I most surely do not presume a win against an entry team, but I still have to meet the threat.

    As Sixto said I think the odds of me being hit by lightning is higher than me being killed by my local swat team.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  4. #124
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Going back to the original question I would do what ever I had to to protect my home and family. My first concern is for the welfare of my family and not the welfare of the person who kicked my door in. That responsibility is theirs.

    As far as the Oklahoma law got it seems to take into account that a mistake might happen?

    "D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

    That sentence I put in bold seem to be there to cover possible mistakes.

    Michael

  5. #125
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    Lots of folks get hit by lightening each year

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    t.

    As Sixto said I think the odds of me being hit by lightning is higher than me being killed by my local swat team.
    Lots of folks get hit by lightening each year AND lots of faulty warrants are served each year. We only hear about the stuff that goes horribly wrong.

    If someone gets hit by lightening and lives to tell about it, it becomes a news story. If someone is the victim of a mistaken raid and lives to tell about it, it typically won't be news unless the victim is rich or well connected.

    Neither lightening nor bad raids are extremely rare events.

    Take the example which started this thread. Suppose instead of a deadly shootout, that woman had been manhandled, had a shoulder dislocated or a twisted ankle. Do any of you think we would have heard of the incident? Why not? For the same reason many here doubt her story. Poor. Disadvantaged. Mother of a nogoodnick. Not worthy of our attention.

    I guess one reason this issue bothers me is the fact that I live in a community where the population is extremely mobile. There is a huge seasonal turnover in the rental apartments, and a similarly large turnover in areas where parents buy homes for their kids to live in while at school.
    And not all the kids really attend school or are nice little law abiding young people.

    With this sort of community, it is only a matter of time until a bad error happens. Especially, as both gang and drug use appear to be in a sharp uprise recently.

    (I'm talking hypothetically, as I have not read of a no-knock event; but then we have pretty good judges and a darn good DA.)

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The op wrote: "Parker says Korbe "had a weapon" when authorities came to her Indiana Township home, roughly 10 miles northeast of Pittsburgh, about 6 a.m. "She made a decision based on her prior experiences in the neighborhood," Parker says. "She may have believed it was the appropriate course of action."

    Assuming that Korbe was innocent (not a drug dealer/user etc.) and made the decision as suggested based on experiences in the neighborhood, she should not have been charged.

    This initial example is what I was talking about, and it is a good example which shows that at least in the instance reported, there is insufficient legal protections for an innocent present when the raid occurrs.

    We could argue endlessly, but as Farronw. said, we are looking at this from two different perspectives. The answer isn't with my opinion, or with yours, but with better legislation controlling these sorts of activities.
    The thread has long since evolved from the OP's post, most of my comments had nothing to do with that case at all.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #127
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    As the OP, I am thrilled to see such a vigorous debate over one of my "pet peeve" topics. As is demonstrated in this thread, there is an almost endless variety of circumstances, tactics and responses by LE and civilian targets. There is far too much risk, for the little reward of bagging a suspected drug dealer or whatever.

    IMHO all "no knock" raids against civilian targets should be stopped. End of story. Very simple solution.

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  8. #128
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    i'm not a criminal. no one in my immediate family is a criminal. none of my friends are criminals. i mind my business, don't really involve myself in neighborhood affairs, and make sure i drive the speed limit.

    so, if i'm woken up at 4am to the sound of my door being kicked in, i'm not going to take the time to try and ascertain if it's the police, because odds are, it's not. what i AM going to do is take position at the top of the stairs, and start shooting at whoever tries to walk up. if they're police, they should identify themselves as such. i'm getting tired of hearing about LEOs/FBI agents/ATF goons who think they're above the law, or are too sloppy/stupid to make sure they have the right house.

  9. #129
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    KingPerformance,

    I'd be interested in your answers to the questions I asked you in my previous post which you didn't answer.

    "how many people [ an LE team or bangers ] do you think you can take out before you yourself are dispatched?"

    "Do you really think you can take on a 4 man, well armed and trained team and survive?"

    Brownie
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  10. #130
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    Please don't equate LE and bangers

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    KingPerformance,
    "how many people [ an LE team or bangers ] do you think you can take out before you yourself are dispatched?"

    "Do you really think you can take on a 4 man, well armed and trained team and survive?"

    Brownie
    Please don't equate LE and Bangers; a well armed 4 man LE team is a very different situation from a confrontation with bangers. While the homeowner may not initially be able to tell the difference, there is far more danger from the bangers--and far more chance of dealing with them effectively. They are unlikely to come in with a flash-bang grenade, or let loose an irritant bomb, and far less likely to be wearing body armor. Besides, there is no choice whatsoever when it comes to defending against the bangers, as they will do you in no matter what; you can't give up. At least with LE, in theory, if you realize it is LE and give up there is a chance you will still live to talk about it. And if hurt, that you will receive medical attention quickly.

    The problem with this entire thread/discussion/ situation is that the homeowner is at a terrific disadvantage in the LE scenario because the way things presently are, the police will always insist they properly identified themselves and were fired on anyway, thus turning the defender into a felon.

  11. #131
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    KingPerformance,

    I'd be interested in your answers to the questions I asked you in my previous post which you didn't answer.

    "how many people [ an LE team or bangers ] do you think you can take out before you yourself are dispatched?"

    "Do you really think you can take on a 4 man, well armed and trained team and survive?"

    Brownie
    I'm not sure how many bangers I could take out. Should I fight back and give myself a slim chance of living? Maybe you would prefer I put myself at the mercy of the robbers? Maybe I could die peacefully on my knees with one of their bullets to the back of my head.

    Michael

  12. #132
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    "The problem with this entire thread/discussion/ situation is that the homeowner is at a terrific disadvantage in the LE scenario because the way things presently are, the police will always insist they properly identified themselves and were fired on anyway, thus turning the defender into a felon."

    I don't understand where your comment comes from about LE identifying themselves when they make entry. I've never heard of an LE entry team that didn't [ in fact it's SOP everywhere to my knowledge ], yet you seem to be suggesting there have been instances of their not doing so. Can you cite examples of that anywhere or is this just more LE bashing mentality?

    "While the homeowner may not initially be able to tell the difference, there is far more danger from the bangers--and far more chance of dealing with them effectively."

    Out here in Az in my area, we are having a major problem with MS13 gangs [ as are many states where they operate ]. Their MO is to shoot anyone and everyone going in on home invasions without hesitation. They don't have the fear of dying [ it's like a trademark of this gang to rush in in groups blazing away killing everyone ]. With the MS13 gangs, the homeowner will be taking incoming from all of them at the same time.

    Consequently, one of the questions is, if it's this type of scenario of door kicking, how many do you think you can take out before you yourself are taken down when they are rushing forward blasting everyone indiscriminately that they come across?

    With both the LE and banger scenario, both entries are dynamic and fast paced, in that regard, the scenarios are the same circumstances.

    Brownie
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  13. #133
    Senior Member Array Pure Kustom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    KingPerformance,

    I'd be interested in your answers to the questions I asked you in my previous post which you didn't answer.

    "how many people [ an LE team or bangers ] do you think you can take out before you yourself are dispatched?"

    "Do you really think you can take on a 4 man, well armed and trained team and survive?"

    Brownie
    After taking your course, probably

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I'm not sure how many bangers I could take out. Should I fight back and give myself a slim chance of living? Maybe you would prefer I put myself at the mercy of the robbers? Maybe I could die peacefully on my knees with one of their bullets to the back of my head.

    Michael
    I'm not suggesting not fighting back at all, none of my posts have suggested otherwise. What I've suggested is to not rush in to the scenario headlong shooting first and asking questions later mindset as you are quite likely to be met with armed multiple forces all giving you incoming.

    Suicide by gang banger is not an option to me.

    Brownie
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  15. #135
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    Ill add one more comment to thisto answer AzQkr:

    When someone kicks in my door, i dont care how many I can take out before i get dispatched; if they have kicked in the door, it is already too late. The enemy (whoever it may be) is already inside my security perimeter. That is why I bought the house I am living in. Any intruder has to traverse the ground floor and come up a narrow, unprotected stairway to get to the bedrooms. There is only one way up or down. The measured distance from the front or back door to the stairs is 65 and 40 feet respectively. and you have to negotiate furniture on the way. It will take at least 4 seconds for me to do it, and that is with me knowing the path and gaming it out.

    Now a 4 man team bangs on the door, setting off the alarm. the guys rush in, probably hitting a couple of chairs on the way in. they hustle and bustle to the stairway, covering the 40 or 60 feet in about 5 to six seconds, looking for bedrooms, feeling their way along, not knowing what to expect.

    I am already at the top of the stairs by now before they even reach the bottom of the stairway. I dont have to get all 4 of the entry team. All i have to do is get one or two of them and the stairway is impossibly clogged with bodies. there are ten rounds in the Benelli M1. Have you ever watched a very experienced shooter unload a Benelli M1? Again, my purpose is not to get them all, just slow them down and buy time. If I can slow things down to buy my wife time to call 911 and assemble the kids then so be it.

    After I finish unloading the M1 I drop it and grab the AR right behind me. It has 2 30 round clips attached. again, i dont have to get them all, just slow them down....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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