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scenerio where you AD into the perp

3K views 36 replies 27 participants last post by  bgriffin70 
#1 ·
The scenerio goes like this: Intruder breaks into your home. You awaken, grab iron, and the intruder walks right into your bedroom. You are standing near the door as he enters and you immediately notice he is armed with a pistol. You fire COM killing/wounding/whatever the intruder. Then, you stumble, fall forward onto and beside the body and AD the guy right into the head.

So, you justifiably shot him once in the chest. Would you then be charged for any reason for his head being blown off?

This discussion, as odd as it may seem, really happened and turned into a heated discussion. I'm telling the guy that the second shot to the head would not matter. he says that in the least you'd be charged with desicrating a corpse.
 
#3 ·
You would have a tough time proving that it was an ND rather than a coup de grace. Police would assume that the second shot was done in anger and any SD scenario would go out the window.

So... keep your booger hook off the bang stick.
 
#4 ·
Even within a group that deals with improbabilities (us), this is so improbable as to border on impossible. I'd like to see a link to this case, if it actually exists.

I, for one, would have a seriously hard time believing it was an ND, and not an execution. I'm quite sure I'm not alone in this.

I strongly advise you, or anyone else, to be very careful about accidentally shooting anyone who has ceased to be a threat.
 
#20 ·
I strongly advise you, or anyone else, to be very careful about accidentally shooting anyone who has ceased to be a threat.
And discussing it in an open forum.
 
#5 ·
So, you justifiably shot him once in the chest. Would you then be charged for any reason for his head being blown off?
The powder marks/burns would clearly show the head shot as being up close and personal, as compared to the other. In situations where guilty-until-proven-innocent (as often occurs), I'm with OPFOR in believing you'd be hard-pressed to support your claim it was accidental and erasing from the minds of the Grand Jury, prosecution or jury of your peers the image of how different that last shot was.

The one saving grace in this situation would be that it's inside the home. There's a presumption in the minds of most citizens of the right to defend yourself inside your own home. That might be enough to call a spade a spade: it was an attack against innocents inside your home; you didn't murder the attacker, you defended against him/her; you're still standing and the perpetrator of the attack is not. Beyond that are mere details, really, but the Devil's in those little buggers.
 
#7 ·
Trajectory , angles, powder burns , blood splatter.
I think it would be difficult to justify a "trip and shot" to a jury.
 
#8 ·
This is not an actual case. Just a thought a guy had here at work. I think that if I shot him in the chest at 5 feet with my .45 the ND to the top of his head would be irrelevent. Also, the perps priors and history would play into this. If the home owner didn't know the perp and the perp had prior B&E charges then you might be in the clear.
 
#9 ·
WE DO NOT SHOOT TO KILL. WE SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT.

You'd be mistaken. Even though he could be Hitler reincarnated, the second shot would be considered unnecessary. Again, I am not saying you popped the guy on purpose but that is the way it will come across investigators. For police, BG was down and no longer a threat and the second shot will be viewed as murder, maybe not first degree but certainly outside the scope of legitimate self defense. At a minimum you might be charged with manslaughter.

As for the following:
Also, the perps priors and history would play into this. If the home owner didn't know the perp and the perp had prior B&E charges then you might be in the clear.
In how many trials have you seen that prior acts have no relevance and are not to be used during the proceedings? If you have any doubts about this, do a Google search for Harold Fish.
 
#10 ·
Good Point Miggy.
Just to clear things up a bit, I try my hardest to keep my finger off the trigger. I hope in this case I won't forget. Also, I'm not stepping over the body of a perp, dead or alive. I've seen too many scary movies where the guy reaches up and grabs you when you step over him. I also do not think I would only fire one round. but, again I'm talking about what I think, not what I've done.
 
#11 ·
There is only one thing you do after any SD situation. It does not matter if it went easily (hah) or if you screwed up big time.

Ask your lawyer before saying anything.
 
#12 ·
Read some of Mas Ayoob's files about real trials that he's testified in. If you still think that "a good shoot is a good shoot" after doing so, I don't know what to tell you. Shooting someone in the head after they are down and out of the fight WILL be looked at harshly, at the very very least. "Whoops!" is not a very strong defense in a court of law...
 
#13 ·
I think in the scenario you gave, you can expect to spend your life savings and probably have "Bubba" as a room mate for a LONG time.
 
#16 ·
This is getting way, way out there.

First your wife should not be in front of you when shooting the BG, or immediately following the shooting of the BG. That is unless your some kind of moron that told the wife, "hey go see what that noise is while I stay here with the gun". That ain't going to happen in my house.

Second, if by chance you shot someone accidentally during the commision of a crime. Generally the person committing the crime would be held responsible. This will vary from state to state I am sure.

As far as the original scenario, well if you can see the BG has a gun, you should be able to see what your doing well enough not to trip fall and put one in his noggin.
 
#17 ·
Once the assailant is down, you have no reason to approach him so that this could even happen. If you trip, it should be on your way out of the house to wait for the police to get there.

What if you AD your wife when you trip? Are you charged with murder, or the perp?
Technically, both of you could be. You, for being a negligent skillethead and ND-ing (not AD-ing) your spouse, if the DA wanted to bring charges. And, the burglar because anytime someone dies during the commission of a crime, the perpetrator can be charged with murder - say your wife had had a heart attack; extra murder charge along with the B&E.

Joe
 
#19 ·
You are standing near the door as he enters and you immediately notice he is armed with a pistol. You fire COM killing/wounding/whatever the intruder. Then, you stumble, fall forward onto and beside the body and AD the guy right into the head.
1st off I would not want to talk details untill I spoke with a lawyer.

2nd) pistol in hand + breath in lungs + BG in my bedroom = threat in my eyes

Did I trip and fall or did the BG trip me as an agressive act? Was it an AD or did the BG still have gun in hand and finger on trigger? Obviosly facts need to match your story but this is why I would not want to talk details untill the adreniline calmed and I talked to a lawyer. I see this as a case where actions are justified but your story could land you deep dodo.
 
#21 ·
Like he said,they can tell from trajectory at what angle the bullet was fired,but on the other hand just because a guy has been shot and is on the ground if he still has his gun and is trying to shoot you then he's a threat and you may end up having to shoot him again,is a head shot a good idea that's something you may have to defend in court as it will look like you executed him unless he's wearing body armor.When I was an Leo about 30 years ago we were told no head shots, it will really look bad
 
#22 ·
If you had this happen in Las Vegas or Miami and during the shifts that Gus Grissom or Horatio Caine's crew are working, then you have no worries as they would figure out what had happened anyway.
Otherwise though well tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...to you attorney who during the murder trial will in kind on your behalf relay same for a jury or judge to buy.

- Janq is pretty nimble on his feet and rarely stumbles muchless falls
 
#23 ·
Yep, and by the end of the day you would be free to go on your way. No worries. Funny how our local PD's don't work that fast. It took our local department 3 weeks to track down the guy who burgalarized my neighbor, but hey they got him. The officer got a chuckle when we asked him if they would have the prints run and the guy in custody by the end of his shift. :rofl:

I bet there are lots of crime labs that wish CSI or NCIS or those type of shows didn't exist.
 
#25 ·
Wild scenario, way out. Shooting the dead corpse --assuming a heart shot first one out the pipe--wouldn't be much of a crime and wouldn't likely be prosecuted.

The Medical Examiner's determination of exactly when the perp expired might play a big role in how a case like this is handled.

Elsewhere in the thread someone mentioned ND into wife; someone else said wife shouldn't be in the way.

Hmmm, you don't know mine. "Shouldn't
has nothing to do with it. What do you do if yours is curious as h and does something goofy -like you say, "get out of this room now," and she proceeds to walk between you and perp?

Strange improbable stuff happens all the time.

Anyway, it all boils down to intent, as best the jury can figure out what the intent was. If the intent was a coup de grace and the jury thinks so, it is not going to be a nice ending for the homeowner.
 
#31 ·
The Medical Examiner's determination of exactly when the perp expired might play a big role in how a case like this is handled.
How do I say this? In a case like the one presented, if you place yourself at the hands of the investigating parties, you might be setting yourself up for a long stretch in a room with a view to nowhere and a overly friendly room mate.

Best advice I can give: Keep your booger hook off the bang stick.

Second Best Advice: Some comments are starting to sound like conspiracy to withhold/destroy/tamper evidence...walking a very fine line here.
 
#27 ·
This will not be a problem for me cause he would get all six COM (minus any strays). So when he is down and I trip there will be no ND cause my gun will be empty. :)
 
#28 ·
Standing, falling, moving on the ground...the BG is going to keep attracting lead from any of those positions if he is still moving in my home...the threat will be stopped.:22a:
 
#33 ·
The ME would have to determine if the first shots(s) were fatal or was the BG still alive for the second shot.
There is No way* you can tell from that distance with a chest wound if he was dead.
If the ME determined that the "accidential shot" killed him, whoops your on the hook. If he was down he was no longer an immediate threat and you shot him without cause.
If he was dead already, and if the investigation can (physics) show it was accidential you might be ok, criminally, I think you'll be sued for something.

Either way the media will have a field day and you have made a poop sandwich out of a legally justified shooting. The question is are you gonna have to eat that sandwich or just take a bite.
 
#34 ·
It may depend on your state laws. As a retired LEO and instructor I was taught, and still teach today, that once deadly is justified there is no limit to how much deadly force is used. Now this may be dealing specifically with Texas laws, but let's look at it from that perspective.

If you were justified in using deadly force, why would it matter if you shot the BG once, twice or ten times? His actions caused you to be in fear for your life and thus justified the use of deadly force. If he was dead with the first shot good, if he was not dead until the final shot in the head, he was still technically a threat. Whichever shot was the fatal one, doesn't mean that particular shot caused immediate incapacitation.

Any shooting is going to put you in the hot seat for awhile until things are sorted out, but I don't see this scenario causing any real problems.
 
#36 ·
It may depend on your state laws. As a retired LEO and instructor I was taught, and still teach today, that once deadly is justified there is no limit to how much deadly force is used. Now this may be dealing specifically with Texas laws, but let's look at it from that perspective.

If you were justified in using deadly force, why would it matter if you shot the BG once, twice or ten times?
Because once the threat ceases to be a threat, you are no longer justified in using deadly force. If you shoot him and he goes down, is not making any threatening movements, has dropped his weapon, etc, you are no longer justified in using lethal force. Period. If you can articulate that he was somehow still a threat, then you may be OK, but that is not the scenario in the OP. In that case, you "accidentally" shot someone in the head who posed no threat to you. That's murder, or negligent homicide at best.
His actions caused you to be in fear for your life and thus justified the use of deadly force. If he was dead with the first shot good, if he was not dead until the final shot in the head, he was still technically a threat.
How? How was he still "technically" a threat? Just because he's alive doesn't mean he's a threat... This is where your ability to clearly demonstrate that the severely wounded guy on the ground somehow still presented an imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury, and that this "threat" was so threatening that you tripped over him, rather than standing off, running away, calling the po-po, or whatever... Not an impossible task, of course, but not an easy one either.
Whichever shot was the fatal one, doesn't mean that particular shot caused immediate incapacitation. Any shooting is going to put you in the hot seat for awhile until things are sorted out, but I don't see this scenario causing any real problems.
I strongly disagree. Many people have faced VERY real problems from situations less "unclear" than this one. People have spent lots of time and money in court, and even more time in prison, because of "better" shoots than the one the OP described.
 
#35 ·
When I first read the OP I wrongly assumed that this was an event that had actually occurred.
Then further on down I read that it was only a previous discussion of a purely hypothetical scenario.

It's a real "rubber band stretch" of the Ol' Imagination.

I guess it can stay here in Defensive Scenarios though since members seem interested in responding. :dead:

What do I think?? :confused:

I think I need a stiff drink. :yup:
 
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