Mumbai in US?? (Merged)

This is a discussion on Mumbai in US?? (Merged) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is possible to get a license to carry a firearm in India. There are some hoops to jump through but, it is possible. Not ...

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Thread: Mumbai in US?? (Merged)

  1. #16
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    It is possible to get a license to carry a firearm in India.
    There are some hoops to jump through but, it is possible.
    Not many citizens have one though.
    That will probably change a bit now.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Concerning a terror attack on our home soil.
    Look at how one man...(well a man and a boy) with one semi-automatic rifle AKA the D.C. Sniper caused such an incredible amount of fear, panic, and havoc at an incredible cost to the U.S. Economy and LEO resources.
    And that was not any sort of well planned/orchestrated attack by multiple terrorists in multiple simultaneous locations.

    It won't take much to toss this country into a tailspin.

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  3. #17
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    Mostly agree on this one with Black PR. Will add, I'm a cautious optimist. Deep down I believe we will eventually learn that the Mumbai stuff was pulled off by rogues within the Pakistan army, not by a "gang of ordinary (is there such a thing) terrorists." There was a sophistication to the planning, and large amounts of money behind that attack.

    While many in the world hate us, that hatred is nothing compared to the hatred between Pakistan and India. So, I'm optimistic about the odds being against such a thing happening here.

    When I was about 14 (ancient history) I read a book about the fighting between India and Pakistan. The viciousness on both sides was horrendous and beyond inhumane; well beyond inhumane.

    I think Mumbai will prove to be, from our perspective, a special case.

    I'm certainly not saying it can not happen here. It could. I'm just saying I think Mumbai was a special situation and part of a long long long nasty war.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain38 View Post
    A Mumbai, yes, or worse yet, another Beslan!
    Most amount of terror during a greatest period of time capturing the most Media attention.

    Hotels have been a favorite target for many years and the sad truth is that no hotel chain in the US is prepared or even worried about something like that happening. They are more concerned about maids stealing bedspreads or guests tripping, falling and filing a lawsuit. Some Hotel corporations do not even have a headquarters office of Security just maybe a regional guy who checks from time to time a particular hotel.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    It is possible to get a license to carry a firearm in India.
    There are some hoops to jump through but, it is possible.
    Not many citizens have one though.
    That will probably change a bit now.
    That's putting it mildly. My understanding is that you need a permit to buy, a permit to own, a permit to transport, a permit to test fire and a permit to practice and even a permit to transport your gun for repair and a 45-day wait to sell or transfer (with appropriate permit to sell and the buyer having a permit to buy).

    While they don't have outright ban on guns, in most areas they seem to have defacto bans through excessive bureaucracy. Although in some of the more "militant" areas, where insurgants and border troubles exist (Kashmir anyone?) the gov't issues guns to people. Go figure! Of course, this is just my understanding after a grand total of 10 minutes reading the laws...

    Interestingly, though, they do have a mechanism for foreigners to bring in their guns for travel throughout India. You get a special passport stamp and everything.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    The fact that we're talking about it at all, and that we consider it in the least bit plausible, is itself a threat ...
    Discussion is itself a threat???? I don't follow you.

    In a group of 300M people, it's simply naive to believe there aren't a number of criminals in our midst who would consider the murder of dozens to be plausible or even reasonably likely to succeed. The mere fact we have a handful of school/mall shootings each year proves that "they" are indeed in amongst us.

    Only stupidity makes the link from fear to the justification for warrantless wiretaps. (The dangerous part is that this stupidity is in the halls of power, realizing it's an opening to grasp for more.) Sadly, the unthinking wad of senators lets so much slide right through and acts as rubber-stamping fools, when a vote's on the line. I doubt very much that such unthinking behavior is done because the mob is fearful or in discussion on a given day.

    It's very Orwellian and utterly typical for the gov't to justify spying on their own people using this "they are in our midst" fear tactic.
    If it were a tactic being crammed down throats, that's one thing. But when we're speaking of a minor, simple expansion in scale from what's already going on, then to claim subsequent discussion an Orwellian governmental fabrication is a bit much, I'd say.

    That we have a sane and rational discussion here doesn't make insane, Orwellian steps by the governing few in DC any more or less likely.

    We should be trumpeting how an armed populace might have dramatically changed the outcome in India. Only bad guys have guns, and they have a hell of a lot of 'em. The populace is utterly outgunned and are sitting ducks for just this sort of attack.
    We trumpet this daily, here, and many of us do so frequently to our senators and the media. But, without $100M and a big microphone, much gets simply ignored and swept under the rug, as we're the piddly little folk.

    I think an argument, a very strong one, could be made that gun control DID contribute to the success of their attacks.
    I'm of the opinion it's the only logical conclusion. Two cats in a cage with one de-clawed, and you've got yourself a predictable outcome. It's as predictable with Johnny Criminal on the street corner looking for a mark as it is with the next Trolly Square, Omaha, V.Tech or Columbine hoodlums who simply decide to ratchet up the stakes just a bit. Many such folk are already here, and likely a few more come each day through the porous imaginary lines we call borders. They've just not gotten the gumption, yet. De-clawing the "cat" won't improve the odds any, either. You know it. I know it. And the thinking senators I have communicated with know it.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Discussion is itself a threat???? I don't follow you.
    I think you misunderstood the tone of what I was saying. The perception alone, that it's a threat, gives governments and "the people" an argument to use in favor of gun control. I went on to say that we need to be aware that it will almost certainly be used that way. I didn't mean to imply that just posting on a forum here about it is a threat. I meant that the plausibility of such an attack becomes a way to leverage and exploit fear and use it against the people. (and the fact that we're discussing it here and accepting it as plausible is evidence of the risk).

    The line between that fear and gun control is easy to see, because it's how all gun control is implemented -- "for our safety or the safety of the children". I'd be willing to plunk down a $1 bet right now that Mumbai is mentioned in the debates leading to the new assault weapons ban. That's was my point.

    It was awkwardly worded... and maybe an awkward point. But I think we're on the same page.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  8. #22
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    Well, I still have some tinfoil left over from Thanksgiving, so let me crumple up a hat, and throw my two cents in. No smuggled guns, no airplanes, just one guy, a stolen semi tractor trailer, a city map, and a rail crossing that hazmat tanker cars cross on a regular basis. Drive in the oncoming lane, and no traffic will be in your way.
    Last edited by ICTsnub; November 30th, 2008 at 01:47 AM. Reason: typo

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada229 View Post
    With the terror attacks in India this past week, I can't help but wonder how long till it happens here? Will it happen here? I believe it could, but we have a big advantage-we'll shoot back, provided the right people are in the right place at the right time. Thoughts?
    Read in the paper just yesterday that they are stepping up security in NY subways...as they have recieved what they are calling a "credible" threat.

    It is a matter of time. When they said they wold test NoBama....I didn't question it....the question is will this administration be able to handle it.

    My advice...be ready to protect you and your family....

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    If something like this happens in the US, I just pray there's one or two CCW holders there who can make a huge dent in the body count.
    Sadly "they" are not that stupid as much as we'd like them to be. I'd guess if (when) it happens it will be in one of our major "gun free zones" like New York City, San Francisco, or Chicago.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Sadly "they" are not that stupid as much as we'd like them to be. I'd guess if (when) it happens it will be in one of our major "gun free zones" like New York City, San Francisco, or Chicago.
    I could see San Francisco. I would doubt NYC or Chicago because of the size of the police departments. NYPD has something on the order of 30,000 sworn officers. I forget how many in Chicago. They also have fairly large emergency response teams with matching budgets.
    Most departments have policies in place for dealing with active shooters, and functionally that was what these guys were.

    If they want to be able to sustain an operation they would need to avoid large population centers with large departments.

    Now a WMD attack in a big city could work, but a lot of the chem/bio stuff is really over rated, and lot would be mitigated by weather factors.

    Lots of options though, the question is what would their ultimate goal be? Do they just want to kill a bunch of people and outrage everyone and only directly hurt their victims, the victims families and friends, or would they maybe like to push our economy over the brink?
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    I always figured it'd be a dam... Relatively lightly guarded and the right dam could bring down a string of other dams (think Colorado River) and cause widespread destruction. It's just that something like the Glen Canyon dam is really, really hard to break.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  13. #27
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    It isn't his best novel but, I can suggest the Tom Clancey novel "The Teeth of the Tiger" as a possibly likely scenario.

    4 teams of terrorists come into the country, really just walk in across the Southern Border, acquire weapons on the black market from gang bangers I believe, and then perform 4 mass shootings at shopping malls simultaneously. The locations are picked to instill the most fear and a feeling of "they can get us anywhere" because they are all in all American towns. Not big cities but every day American towns.

    I think this was Clancey's post 9-1-1 novel. He wrote it rather quickly, probably his way of dealing with the whole 9-1-1 situation. I liked it, but as I say, since he wrote it so quickly, it isn't quite as good as his others, but still worth a read.

    In at least one of the mall shooting scenes, as I recall, armed citizens do make a difference.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    the question is what would their ultimate goal be? Do they just want to kill a bunch of people and outrage everyone and only directly hurt their victims, the victims families and friends, or would they maybe like to push our economy over the brink?
    BINGO.........!!!

    They have managed to do a pretty good job on our economy with just one (actually two) hits on 9/11 haven't they?

    What makes you think that is not their ultimate goal? Break our economy, breaks our lifestyles and breaks the Nation into pieces.

    Pretty effective.......already almost there.........

  15. #29
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    I've always feared that the next major terrorist attack in the U.S. would be focused on our water supply; particularly the resorvoir system in CA.

    Just read BlackPR's post. I was thinking more along the lines of pollution/poison in the system. However, destruction of the structure itself would be absolutely horrible.
    When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    I think you misunderstood the tone of what I was saying. The perception alone, that it's a threat, gives governments and "the people" an argument to use in favor of gun control. I went on to say that we need to be aware that it will almost certainly be used that way.
    My apologies if I misconstrued. I agree that political hacks will take an inch and turn it into a mile, if it proves to be good political fodder. It's the M.O. of the beast (political hacks). The 2A, other laws and simple integrity won't stop the twisting, either, if the perceived goal is in sight.

    Interestingly, I have a colleague from Mumbai whom I recently introduced to firearms. He had never seen one up-close and had never shot one. We took a half-dozen of them to the range, earlier in the year, and I proceeded to show him the differences in how they operated, handled and shot. By the end, while still a bit tentative, he was becoming a reasonable marksman. We then had a long, leisurely afternoon during which we spoke of the differences between our two societies in terms of having an armed populace. We spoke of what could be done when a person has nothing but his thumb and prayer to work with, as compared to proper defensive tools. I believe he got to the point where he understood the simplicity of reality, when a given crime goes down. I have yet to speak with him, since the raids. It'll be interesting to check his thoughts, now.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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