Mumbai in US?? (Merged)

This is a discussion on Mumbai in US?? (Merged) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ripley16 It also shows how foolish it is to confront murderous thugs armed with automatic weapons, explosives and a desire to be ...

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Thread: Mumbai in US?? (Merged)

  1. #46
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    It also shows how foolish it is to confront murderous thugs armed with automatic weapons, explosives and a desire to be ruthless, with a handgun. It's nice to think how heroic civilian gun toters could save the day, but IMHO, that is just fantasy.
    One man with a sidearm will not stand long against this kind of firepower and resolve. That is quite true. They will take out one or two bad guys and then be overwhelmed. In a community where one to five percent of the population is armed can that one to five percent save the day? Maybe, maybe not. The real fantasy is to think that doing nothing would change the outcome.

    They can make a difference.

    Most of the situations we discuss here are nervous criminals, inexperienced in the use of firearms. In many situations they have brought unloaded, unchambered, or non-functional firearms to the scene of the crime. They run when confronted and do not return fire in a disciplined manner, if at all. This situation would be different. These guys wouldn't run. They are practiced and disciplined and would pin down and eliminate any single threat that confronted them pretty quickly. There would be fewer bad guys every time they encountered someone who defended themselves, though. Those people who defended themselves would certainly perish, not unlike those who did nothing. The bad guys would be slowed down though, and some other innocent people might get the time they need to escape while the bad guys dealt with the good guys.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

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  3. #47
    Member Array Stranger's Avatar
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    ...I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.

    The last line of the report says it all.

  4. #48
    Member Array ChiWeiSz's Avatar
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    I agree, a single handgun is no match for trained militants, but when all that saves a few people are 5 seconds, well, I for one vote for saving a few innocents. If I die, I want to die a hero - rather than for the headline to read,
    "A man was shot down during the terroist attack - he was armed - why didn't he shoot?"
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    It would depend entirely on where in the U.S. and what police agency. Some are equiped as para-military units but most are not. My point is that police tactics would not work well against a military staged and equiped foe. Had the L.A. bank robbers had hand grenades, the outcome would have been much, much worse. It was bad enough as it was and supports my view.

    I do not attribute any more courage to our (U.S.) police than I do Indian police. They were confronted with overwhelming force. I'm sure as the story unfolds a few heros will emerge. Many of them dead, I predict.
    The fact is, this article in the Belfast Telegraph is the first I've seen reporting this and the accounting may or may not be accurate. I'm sure many more facts will emerge as this thing unravels. It would be a mistake to question the courage of the Indian police with our limited knowledge of the facts

  6. #50
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    It would depend entirely on where in the U.S. and what police agency. Some are equiped as para-military units but most are not. My point is that police tactics would not work well against a military staged and equiped foe. Had the L.A. bank robbers had hand grenades, the outcome would have been much, much worse. It was bad enough as it was and supports my view.
    Police tactics, any tactics, work better at saving the lives of innocent people than nothing. Doing nothing is the universal recipe for the conquest of evil and the delivery of our lives into the hands of those who would take them on a whim. Will the man or woman who does something pay a price? They will almost certainly pay with their lives, but they can make a difference. They will make a much bigger difference in the situation than those who stand idly by and watch, or whose only contribution is to lower the ammo supply of the bad guys by allowing them to put a few of their bullets into them.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  7. #51
    Member Array rmxer85's Avatar
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    "By the time the second or third incident happens, you can bet that there will be many an armed citizen arriving on scene (thanks to the fear mongering media) to assist. It will be a simple matter for the LEO agencies to distinguish. If the shooter has an evil black gun, BG, if the shooter has only a handgun, GG."


    If it were to happen in my town, and I decided that I had to act; I certainly would not be going armed with just my pistol. I'd probably be mistaken for the governor of Calif. with the gear i'd be bringing to the fight.

    One of which would be an Evil Black Rifle.

    .......and i'd be bringing friends.
    I thoroughly disapprove of duels.
    If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand
    and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    I live in Mass. I wish I had friends with evil black rifles willing to go on a terrorist shoot with me!
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  9. #53
    Member Array celticredneck's Avatar
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    One of my favorite sayings is "The first two nukes used in war were delivered by high flying B-29s against Japan. The next will probably be delivered by a Ford Van in Los Angeles." There is a heck of a lot uf fissionable material in the world which is unaccounted for. I think it's only a matter of time.

  10. #54
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    I agree that the Clancy scenario from Teeth of the Tiger is more likely than what happened in Mambi. Our best defense here in the USA is the monitoring of our communication networks. The kind of attack that happened in India would have a lot of communication and that would be vulnerable to detection. The scenario of a dozen or so people entering the country with all their plans already made and no communication needed after entry would be impossible to stop ahead of time.

    The terrorists that want to destroy our way of life will choose the targets that will hurt us economically and demoralize us at the same time. Attack the malls and people stay away and business suffers, attack the schools and people keep their kids home and that impacts business too. Scare the public into staying home and business suffers.

    An author wrote a book that referred to the perfect day. In the book the muslim terrorists attack several schools like the one they attacked in Russia. The outcome of these attacks cannot go wrong for the terrorists.
    • We go crazy and retaliate in mobs against anything muslim. This galvanizes muslims in the rest of the world against America.
      We cower in our homes and our economy faulters, further removing us from the world scene.
      We cower as a government and stop standing up to muslim terrorism and muslim aggression in the world.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    The fact is, this article in the Belfast Telegraph is the first I've seen reporting this and the accounting may or may not be accurate. I'm sure many more facts will emerge as this thing unravels. It would be a mistake to question the courage of the Indian police with our limited knowledge of the facts
    Excellent point! We'll need much more info to make an educated judgement on this attack and those involved.

    To the OP...
    Even with all its problems, America is a well-armed country. Forget the as there are still many more armed individuals that most other countries.
    We have all seen threads within these forums of armed citizens defending others.
    There would be panicked running everywhere, but I would like to think that the armed citizenry 'sprinkled' among the would not let a free slaughter go unanswered.
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  12. #56
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    The fact is the India LEO's are under trained, under equipped, under staffed, and reactive and not proactive.

    The above is predominantly due to "politics". It must change, and maybe the India business community can force the changes with their combined voices:

    Analysis: India's Business Community Is Angry Over Attacks


    In the wake of the Mumbai terrorist attacks, it is time for India's business community to stop being polite to the nation's politicians and instead demand action on the woeful state of public safety and security, says Pramod Bhasin, chief executive of Gurgaon, India-based Genpact Ltd., one of India's largest outsourcing companies.

    As told to The Wall Street Journal's Paul Beckett:

    In the business community there is enormous anger and despair. Enormous anger because something like this happened and enormous anger at the politicians because they continue to factionalize, ruin, divide the nation, and focus on the wrong issues.

    There is despair because we all know people who have died. And there is despair because if you talk to someone in the police or the armed forces they will tell you they are very woefully unprepared.

    How do we influence the government and make them more effective? A lot of people say it is just through voting but the process of government doesn't work.

    What do we need to do? Public services have to improve and we need to learn how to execute. We need far greater urgency around crisis management.

    I watched Home Minister Shivraj Patil speak to the nation and I was comparing him to former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani on 9/11. Obviously that was a tragedy of far greater proportions and far greater ramifications. But Giuliani showed urgency and action. Patil gave no sense of urgency or crisis management. [Mr. Patil resigned Sunday.]

    In the U.S., I think it would have taken less than a day to flush these guys out. Our police and anti-terror forces have no equipment. In Gurgaon, we don't have a fire engine that can go above the eighth floor.

    Out of this, at least, the politicians will feel greater heat than they have faced in the past. Business will be more volatile and more forceful in saying what needs to be said.

    Business in the past has been politically correct because the government can get upset and lots of us depend on the government in a number of ways. In the past we've been very cooperative and I should say the government is, too. But the fact is: We need to talk about how we are going to be able to improve public safety.

    When Ratan Tata [chairman of Tata Sons and one of India's most prominent businessmen] stands up and says this is a disgrace and we can't take this lying down and be nice boys -- then we have to act. It's a question of engaging a lot more with state governments and the seats of power.

    Businesswise, I don't think there will be a major impact but there will be if things don't change. You are already seeing every company talk about contingencies and country planning: how much concentration is there in one country?

    We can show we are diversified but customers will focus more on that. They will look at us and they will want us to show we have damn good contingency and disaster recovery plans. And they will care a lot more about country risk. One of the things it shows is how vulnerable India is.

  13. #57
    Member Array Raider39a's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree with Ripley's point that a man with a handgun can not make a difference in a tactical situation such as that. yup, you are most likely going to be dead but you can still make a difference. Feb. 1969, an El Al plane was machinegunned in the tarmac in Zurich. pilot and a few passengers died. what made a difference was an Israeli skymarshall armed with a .22 Beretta (IIRC) took on the BGs with long guns and made the rest disengaged thus saving further injury to the passengers.

    the odds are stacked against the defender but with luck, skill, and determination one may be able to pull it off.

    how to defend such a soft target like a hotel from thugs dressed in civilian clothes, sea borne, well motivated, and well armed would be difficult for any country even ours. My condolences to the Dead and a wish of good hunting to the Indian security guys.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
    "no plan survives intact upon contact with the enemy" - wisdom of the Grunts.

  14. #58
    Member Array chenemf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    It also shows how foolish it is to confront murderous thugs armed with automatic weapons, explosives and a desire to be ruthless, with a handgun. This was out of the realm of a local police response and needed a military action. It's nice to think how heroic civilian gun toters could save the day, but IMHO, that is just fantasy.

    Gathering intelligence beforehand is the best way to deal with this type of terror. Then they can be killed or captured before murdering innocents.
    So you are an armed LEO, the BG is shooting at you, you don't return fire because you are waiting for the military? I think I am missing something.

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    Many points have be raised in this/these threads. Yes, I think we will have another terrorist attack in America, eventually. The fact we have not is a testament to the strategy and tactics of the Bush administration. Theyhave done a magnificent job protecting our national security by implementing strong anti-terror legislation such as the Patriot Act, which has thwarted innumerble plans of the enemy. The captured terrorists, the Buffalo terror cell come to mind immdiately, was a result of the Patrit Act. Some whine about their perceived rights being violated but they never come up with a single edble example.

    The coordinated attack in Mumbai is exactly the the typr of planning we are equipped to meet and defeat. That attack required communications that our intellgence agencies would capture and organization that our intelligence agenies would infiltrate. Some whine about our intelligence capabilities, but their complaining is partly because they do not have any insight into the inner workings. Many prefer to believe the medi reports of wrongdoing and misinformation rather than realizing the media is completely biased. For example, some are still unaware that we confiscated 500 tonf of uranium from Iraq, still complaining that Bush lied and there were no WMD or nuclear plans.

    I also notice that some people think this will be an excuse for our gun rights to be curtailed. Like usual, the reality is very different from the frightened menatility exhibited by some. Our gun rights have been expanded over the last decades with more concealed carry laws in many states. Our progress is slow but continuous. Most recently, the Heller opinion affirmed whatwe already knew. So, it is misguided to think that the continued threat of terrorism will be used to infringe on our rights rather than the more likely scenario that our rights will be further respected and expanded BECAUSE law abiding gun owners are the last line of defense.

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array ripley16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chenemf View Post
    So you are an armed LEO, the BG is shooting at you, you don't return fire because you are waiting for the military? I think I am missing something.
    I don't believe I mentioned waiting, not reacting, being "sheepish" or any other non-reaction. What I did say say is that very few police forces are equiped to respond to a substancial military force such as was seen in Mumbai. I don't have as much confidence in SWAT type units that many of you do I suppose. I also have less confidence in a couple indigenous armed citizens having any significant effect.

    My point is that this type of terrorism is best stopped in it's embyonic stage before it occurs, and that would best be accomplished by intelligence agencies monitoring the BGs and executed by military units. By the time it gets to BGs machine gunning your grannie and blowing up your local police station, it is too late.

    If a similar thing happened in my area I would much prefer the local LEOs to give way to a force of Marines and end the affair as quickly as possible.

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