Over Concerned about Over Penetration? (Long)

This is a discussion on Over Concerned about Over Penetration? (Long) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I see a lot of posts where the discussion is about avoiding over penetration. I believe that we should have more posts about avoiding under ...

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Thread: Over Concerned about Over Penetration? (Long)

  1. #1
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    Over Concerned about Over Penetration? (Long)

    I see a lot of posts where the discussion is about avoiding over penetration. I believe that we should have more posts about avoiding under penetration.

    A round must penetrate deep enough to reach a vital organ or the CNS to stop the threat. To penetrate to the required depth means that the round will penetrate through several interior walls, which in and of itself is not a bad thing. Most home walls are not cover but concealment and we should treat them that way. If you are engaging a BG in your home and he hides behind a wall then shoot through the wall.

    Do not use birdshot in your HD shotgun, I personally recommend #4 buck for a HD shotgun. I use a pistol caliber carbine (M1 Carbine) for HD because I have increased ammo capacity, easier reloads and a better ability to shot through interior walls.

    We should plan according to our own unique situation. If you live in an apartment then think about lanes of fire that would least likely expose the adjourning apartments to stray rounds. If it is your own home then plan according to your room layout and find were you will make your stand and what directions you are willing to fire in. I will not shoot in the direction of my son’s room unless I know he is somewhere else. Be sure your family knows to get down on the floor if they hear gunshots. Come up with a word are phrase that can be shouted to warn your family that your home has been broken into and they are in danger.


    You should know the layout of your home and where your family is during the night in case you have to respond to an armed threat. You should also know your home. My house if very old with a combination of lath and plaster and sheet rock interior walls. I know which walls are which from my non-ending restoration project on my home. I know that some of my interior walls are so hard that I have to drill a pilot hole in order to drive a nail into the wall. I am not overly concerned about a pistol round going through a couple of interior walls and my external wall and having enough power to penetrate my neighbors’ external walls.

    Yes things can happen and I am responsible for every round that I fire, that’s why I’m not using a .308 has my HD gun. But my greatest and most over riding responsibility is the protection of my family. It might sound cold but everything else comes second to my family, including my neighbors. I will shoot through walls if I have too to stop an armed threat, and I want my ammo the be able to penetrate deep enough in a BG to stop him with a COM shot.


    My family has a simple plan incase our house is ever broken into while we are there. My wife gets her pistol and our son, while I get the M1 Carbine and we hole up in the master bedroom with another pistol and shotgun. Then we dial 911. If the door is opened to the bedroom, without the 911 operator telling me it is an officer on the other side, I will unleash a firestorm of .30 carbine rounds.

    I will not clear my house, if I know a BG is in or have very good reason to believe there is a BG in our house. I will get up armed to investigate the bumps and other sounds the cats are making, but after 5 years in the house I am pretty well attuned to the normal night time sounds of our house. If I hear someone breaking into our house then the plan goes into effect. I cover my wife as she gets our son from his room (the master bedroom and our son’s room are connected by a short hallway and isolated from the rest of the house). We then retreat to the master bedroom and follow the plan above.

    I am not worried about looking foolish and having the police come to my house without me clearing it first. It will not decrease my manliness in the slightest to protect my family. And protecting my family is not accomplished by taking foolish risks like trying to clear my house by myself because I am afraid to look foolish. I would rather look foolish than dead.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Member Array Superman's Avatar
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    That wasn't so long, and a good read to boot.

    Personally this is something I fret over constantly. My son's room is opposite the master in our house. Any left leaning shot would probably zip right over his crib.
    Then there's my daughter's room on the right. Bunk beds in there mean I'm restricted both high and low. I've got about a three foot hole (doorway, basically) to blast through if a BG gets to our doorway in the hall.

    After that it's chase or wait. With my kids out there I'm afraid I'd have to chase, pre-drilling walls at every corner.
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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    I would suggest using the shotgun rather than the M1. At close range, even with a door in the way, 00 buck will prove extremely effective without leaving your house and exploring the neighborhood. I don't know that the M1 ammo wouldn't be excessive that way.

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    Boy, that was good! I like pistol caliber carbines for home defense for the reason you stated.

    +1 on protecting the child, but not clearing the house. +1 on letting the police do it.

    Nicely done.
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    Well thought out

    Good post. I have a semi-disabled relative and my infant son, my wife, and I in my split plan house. Not the ideal layout. I have built cover into the bedrooms with heavy bookshelves and a strategically placed gun safe or two. My setup is different than yours, my go-to long gun is a shotgun with birdshot, but I have a dedicated Glock just for bedroom duty. Tru-Glo sights, a light, and some Cor Bon JHP for quick expansion and fragmentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    my go-to long gun is a shotgun with birdshot
    Birdshot? What size shot? I would think you should be worried about under-penetration?

    I understand your concern, but with the planning you've done (bookshelves and gun safes), is birdshot the right answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    my go-to long gun is a shotgun with birdshot, .
    Please leave the birdshot for birds. If it is smaller that 4 shot I would rethink this part of your plan.

    Buy a couple of melons (watermelons or cantaloupes) take them to the range. Shoot them at 10 yds with bird shot and buck shot. Report back your results. You will see why I strongly recommend #4 Buck (Buck not shot) or bigger.

    The positioning of bookcases etc is good forward thinking
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    I would suggest using the shotgun rather than the M1. At close range, even with a door in the way, 00 buck will prove extremely effective without leaving your house and exploring the neighborhood. I don't know that the M1 ammo wouldn't be excessive that way.
    This is .30 carbine ammo not .30'06 ammo. .30 carbine is on par with .357 magnum.

    For my defense (which I never hope happens) if I am ever called in front of a Grand Jury is that it is a WWII weapon that was used by the military and police in the late 40's, 50's and 60's but is consider under powered by them now.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    What is the forth rule of gun safety? Always be sure of your target and what is behind it.

    Shooting through a wall in hopes of hitting the BG...not a good plan IMO.

    You are holed up in the master bedroom with 911, police are not on scene yet according to 911 (Not the case with Joe Horn). You see/hear movement behind the door and you decide to add some peep holes to the door and wall. Hmmm...

    Given your position, you have the advantage. You are in a known location, presumably in a position not directly in line with the door opening and behind cover of some sort (bed, dresser...). If it is a BG they have no qualms about indiscriminate shooting if that is their intent, so they might just randomly fire through the door or walls if they know you are in there, but the only time I have heard of that is in Hollywood productions.

    IF the BG is looking for you or your family and they come to the door armed, they are going to open it. Easier to keep the weapon of choice aimed at the door, and wait for a clear target to present itself and be identified. The BG does not know where in the room you are, you know where the 2.5' x 7' entrance the BG will be.

    I no longer have a home SD shotgun or rifle (stupid, stupid, stupid). I have my DE .44mag in the bedroom as my fall back weapon, and then I will have had to expend my 27 rounds of .40 HST and my wife's 27 rounds of HST before the .44 comes out. If it does, there is a large group of Zombies coming in the house and all bets are off.

    The only exception to that is if there are shots coming at me through the ceiling (master bedroom is in the basement) or wall (I am in an Action Movie) because there are multiple BGs in my house intent on killing me and mine.
    Sticks

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    There's concern, there's a degree of concern some don't agree with, and then there's over-concern. I believe having a healthy regard for all features of a tool's capabilities is worthwhile. With any product that has multiple uses (ie, a knife can be for butter, deer or cardboard, and a bullet can be used in an urban or country setting), consideration of the features isn't wasted.

    The same bullet you've selected for your hard-as-nails-walled home would simply zip through the next five walls in my neighborhood, due to construction techniques alone. My home is fairly small, such that any defensive shots taken from inside will very quickly find an outside wall. For my situation, it's an important consideration. YMMV.
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    Nice read / My Shotgun loaded whith turkey shot care to shoot a extra big water MELON At 10 yards 3 1/2in Copper shot NO more melon garenteed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    What is the forth rule of gun safety? Always be sure of your target and what is behind it.

    Shooting through a wall in hopes of hitting the BG...not a good plan IMO.

    You are holed up in the master bedroom with 911, police are not on scene yet according to 911 (Not the case with Joe Horn). You see/hear movement behind the door and you decide to add some peep holes to the door and wall. Hmmm...
    Sticks I was not meaning to fire blindly through walls and I can see how my post can be interpreted that way. Let me clarify.

    If I identify an armed intruder in my home, I light him up with my 165 lumen light and he ducks behind a wall, I am advocating shooting through the wall which is concealment and not cover.

    Likewise if I engage a intruder in the door to my masterbedroom, where my family and I have holed up, and the BG ducks behind the door jam or wall, I will still engage him with him behind that wall.

    My intent is to stop the threat to my family, if they flee or surrender when hit with a light fine threat stopped. If they engage me and I shoot them threat stopped. If they engaged me and seek cover behind a wall or something else in my home then I will show them the difference between cover and concealment.

    If I hit them then threat stopped, if they realize that this house is too hot for them and flee threat stopped.

    I guess my main point is that most people fire pause and observe. I am advocating releaseing an overwhelming volume of fire.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The same bullet you've selected for your hard-as-nails-walled home would simply zip through the next five walls in my neighborhood, due to construction techniques alone. My home is fairly small, such that any defensive shots taken from inside will very quickly find an outside wall. For my situation, it's an important consideration. YMMV.
    This exactly what I am talking about needing to know your own home and plan accordingly.

    I also advise keeping your plan simple, so it can be adpated to whatever situation that arises. I see some people that have a complex HD plan that would have to be practiced routinely to be effective. If your have HD drills with your family routinely then you can have a complex plan.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

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    Hi pgrass101;

    Thanks for posting this which is very thoughtfully written. You express my sentiments. The M1 Carbine stands guard here as well.

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    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Good post Pgrass101. Personally I have chosen 00 buck for HD use in my shotgun. How worried you are about over penetration is a very personal issue and I certainly won't fault anyone for being more concerned about it than I am. I firmly agree with your assessment of bird shot for HD use.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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