Chest or Gut? - Page 3

Chest or Gut?

This is a discussion on Chest or Gut? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sticks a gut shot has been documented to work, and has been recommended by people who have done the research. By whom? ...

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Thread: Chest or Gut?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    a gut shot has been documented to work, and has been recommended by people who have done the research.
    By whom? In well over 100 shootings worked, I've never seen penetration of the abdominal cavity cause incapacitation. Equally, an informal survey on an LE/EMS board did not reveal anyone who had seen or heard of "pelvic incapacitation" with something other than a shotgun. (I've never seen a training bulletin and/or actual publication with documentation validating this.)

    The "pelvic-stop" has been touted in several of the gun mags; to my knowledge it has only been taught in LE as an escalation of force, stopping a target that has absorbed numerous hits to the torso, and the officer has the option of placing buckshot into the girdle or high-velocity rounds into the femoral process. HG rounds don't have sufficient energy to fragment major structures.

    Thoracic cavity/thoracic-cranial triangle are the "A-zone." The spleen and liver are the only abdominal solid organs that offer similar bleed-out/shock, and they are within the lower envelope of the thorax.


  2. #32
    Member Array mutumbo's Avatar
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    i was working in the hospital ER the other week and we had 3 gunshots come in all at the same time. 2 in the abdomen and one on the lower back. 2 of the guys who were shot got in their car, DROVE themselves to the hospital, got out of the car and walked through the front doors looking for help. the third guy was taken in by ambulance, but he was still awake and fully alert. yeah gut shots OBVIOUSLY work, since all 3 men were completely incapacitated. shoot for the chest, NO questions asked.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I think the general rule is basically you shoot for the biggest target area that is presented to you. The only way a handgun round can reasonably be expected to stop an aggressor instantly is to disrupt the central nervous system. Unfortunately that is not a particularly easy target to hit. Next best option is to shut down the CNS by depriving it of oxygen. That is done by severely compromising oxygenated blood circulation. When the brain has used up all of the oxygen in the blood available to it, systems shut down. The most effective target area for this would be the chest where the heart and lungs are.

    Some people have been hit multiple times with .45acp and kept going, others have taken a peripheral hit with a .22 long rifle and dropped on the spot. You never know how a person is going to react to being shot. You must be prepared to defend yourself as long as the person continues their aggression, and likewise you have to be prepared to stop as soon as hostile actions cease.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBS View Post
    Center-of-mass +1
    Just aim a little high, allow for projectile drop.
    There is no appreciable bullet drop at normal handgun engagement distances.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Chest, Chest, Head!
    The pelvis area is an alterantive zone if the person is waring a vest.

  6. #36
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    I think chest, chest, neck, gut, miss, arm, chest, miss, gut...oops my gun went dry. Reload and asses.

    How about you just keep shooting COM till they go down.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  7. #37
    Member Array Rusty Bouquett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidrow View Post
    Raevan said it best! If you are just shooting to "stop", you probably should not be carrying a firearm.
    Well, if you are not shooting to STOP THE THREAT then you are shooting to KILL. The former is permissable and the latter is not.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidrow View Post
    Raevan said it best! If you are just shooting to "stop", you probably should not be carrying a firearm. You have to be prepared for the possibility of killing another person. To think you can "stop" a threat without a possible death is foolish and short sighted.
    I NEVER have, and NEVER will be of the mindset that I want to kill someone (military service excluded.) The only reason I carry is to STOP someone from causing me, or my family, grievous bodily harm or death.

    If they happen to die in the process, that's just the risk they took when they decided to attack me.

    As far as where to shoot someone to stop the threat - in a well-lit range, shooting slow-fire, using the proper stance and grip, hitting the target is a fairly easy task. In a real-world, combat situation, hitting anything on the aggressor's body is going to be a monumental task. Focusing on making head shots could end up being a fool's errand.

  9. #39
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911packer View Post
    I NEVER have, and NEVER will be of the mindset that I want to kill someone (military service excluded.) The only reason I carry is to STOP someone from causing me, or my family, grievous bodily harm or death.

    If they happen to die in the process, that's just the risk they took when they decided to attack me.
    +1. This gets re-hashed all the time...I'm not sure why. We are not carrying guns to start fights, killing isn't the goal, it's only a possible outcome of a defensive encounter. THIS is the the mindset.

    And as for gut or chest, its chest. Since the numbered rings won't be there on my non stationary target, I'll aim for the upper half of whatever shape is threatening me.

  10. #40
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911packer View Post
    Pelvic shot.

    A round or two of a major caliber to the pelvis could drop the threat where they stand.
    Do you have any data to support this, or should I highlight the word "could" and we accept that a round or two of a major caliber anywhere "could" drop the threat where they stand? We're still talking about handgun calibers, right?


    Fenris, the Az case involving the 10mm was not about the weapon used, and there is no indication that the 10mm itself sold the jury on their decision. That case was a fustercluck for a lot of reasons. To date, I have never heard of a case where in a lawful self-defense shooting the shooter was convicted because of their firearm or ammunition.


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  11. #41
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Fenris, the Az case involving the 10mm was not about the weapon used, and there is no indication that the 10mm itself sold the jury on their decision. That case was a fustercluck for a lot of reasons. To date, I have never heard of a case where in a lawful self-defense shooting the shooter was convicted because of their firearm or ammunition.
    Fenris, from what I know, the use of a 10mm and the hollowpoints used were a "factor" in conviction and sentencing in regards to Inmate Fish.

    I call him Inmate, because that is what he is now. That's something that I think everybody needs to keep in mind. Even good shoots, and their aftermath, can go bad, and one had best be prepared for that.

    Biker

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f8lranger4x4 View Post
    Center Mass +100000
    ++1 Agreed. If a person has enough time to take aim at only the head, perhaps the situation is not a critical as he perceives it to be and the time to fire has not arrived.

    P.S. I am sure that some will contend that they are so good that they can put a round in the bad guy's eye without any aiming or delay. Realistically there are not many of us who can claim such skill under pressure circumstances.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    A pelvic shot works from what I hear.A head shot is a smaller target

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    A pelvic shot works from what I hear.
    A clip from Shoot to live

  15. #45
    Member Array 1911packer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Do you have any data to support this, or should I highlight the word "could" and we accept that a round or two of a major caliber anywhere "could" drop the threat where they stand? We're still talking about handgun calibers, right?
    Whenever someone starts a new thread about shot placement, I like to offer up the option of the pelvic shot. Massad Ayoob made a pretty good case for it at one time.

    Truth of the matter is, a lot of people are shooting out the heads on silhouette targets at the range and think they will be able to do the same thing in a combat situation. All they ever practice is fixed-position, fixed-target, two-handed shooting and they think they are good to go because they have great shot placement.

    Very few of us practice weak hand drills, shooting while moving, shooting on our backs. I would guess none of us practice shooting at a target that is shooting back. There is so much more to gunfighting than knocking out the X-ring at a range.

    Good training, along with a little luck, and you just might place a round in the eye socket or the spine - but don't count on it.

    Bottom line is, arguing where to place the shot makes about as much sense as as arguing 9MM v. .45, semi auto v. revolver. Just start putting rounds on target until the threat stops.

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