When do you NOT shoot?

When do you NOT shoot?

This is a discussion on When do you NOT shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was listening to some good 'ol conservative talk radio on the way in this morning and the talk show host asked the question, when ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: When do you NOT shoot?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    McKinney, TX
    Posts
    3,507

    When do you NOT shoot?

    I was listening to some good 'ol conservative talk radio on the way in this morning and the talk show host asked the question, when do you not shoot.

    He gave examples of many recent shootings in the news, Joe Horn for one as well as a Dallas musician that was shot in the head by his neighbor because the musician (I forget his name) was drunk and on some stop smoking medication and was beating on the door of his (the neighbor) house in the middle of the night.

    The talk show host mentioned the TX Castle Doctrine as signed in 2007 by Gov. Perry stated that we no longer had to try to flee first (like I would anyway and get myself shot in the back) but that we can now, legally, shoot at the perception of danger.

    He then posed this question, "what if someone is beating your door down and when you get to the door they are turned away from you, walking or running away, do you shoot even though legally you can?"

    I say if they are leaving then the threat is gone, but I'll keep a bead on them until they are in fact gone. I'll call 911 to report it, so it is on the record, in case they return and also so they can hopefully keep tabs on this kind of info and maybe increase LEO traffic if too many people report the same thing.

    I'm sure many of you would agree, but I was wondering about your states' regulations on this case. Also what would you do, within the confines of the law?
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3,164
    I don't think I'd shoot anyone in the back unless I thought they were going for cover rather than fleeing, but how do you tell?
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this
    Then check out my blog! www.BodyByMcDonalds.com

    Cupcake - 100 pound loser, adventurer, Ironman Triathlete.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    28,417
    He then posed this question, "what if someone is beating your door down and when you get to the door they are turned away from you, walking or running away, do you shoot even though legally you can?"
    I'm of the opinion that a healthy regard for A.O.J. is a good thing.

    In one phrase, essentially, justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

    A jury of peers and a prosecuting team is going to be a bit mystified if one cannot clearly and simply explain how a non-threat demanded a response at that time. If the attacker was no longer threatening, no longer a risk, no longer attempting to get near enough to actually be able to do damage, or was witnessed to be "leaving" the area, then you've got a tough argument to make. (The "reasonable man" principle.)

    For me, there is a strong difference between beating ON my door and beating my DOWN my door. The only real distinction I'm going to be able to point to in court will be: was the door up or down? If still up, then I've got a real challenge in convincing others that any lethal response was unavoidably required at that moment.

    Would I shoot even though my door was intact and the intruder was clearly walking away? Not unless circumstances were clear that the threat was still deadly and present (ie, he was merely a member of a gang of intruders who were continuing to hammer away at the house, armed, and simply going from entrance to entrance seeking another way in).
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 9th, 2008 at 11:00 AM. Reason: spelling
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #4
    Member Array carver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    East TX
    Posts
    225
    "what if someone is beating your door down and when you get to the door they are turned away from you, walking or running away, do you shoot even though legally you can?"

    I can promise you that I will never shot unless the target is presenting eminent threat to me, mine, or someone who is defenseless. If some one is banging at my door, and not trying to kick it in, I don't shoot, no matter how much noise they are making. But, I won't go open the door either. I will try to find out what they want thru a closed door! What threat does someone pose that has his/her back to you, or may be walking or running away from you, while you have a gun on them?
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
    Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    12,107
    AOJ AND INTENT

    It is possible someone has the ability (A); has the opportunity (O), you are in jeopardy (O), but there is no intent. E.g., someone accidentally sweeps you at the range. There is ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and no intent.

    My understanding of castle doctrine is that it merely means you don't have to retreat when you are in your own home. There is no way to justify shooting someone who has been pounding on your door if they leave when you go to the door. If they really concern you, call 911 and stay armed and inside.

    Think of the misunderstanding that might have occurred. It could be someone seeking help in an emergency, and they left only perhaps because they saw a patrol car pull up to the wreck on the corner --and all they wanted was to call 911.

    As for jeopardy, you don't really have it until the split second the door is breached, a weapon is produced, an explicit threat is made or the behavior is such that a reasonable person would be fearful for their lives under the circumstances.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    1,413
    Why would you ever want to shoot someone in the back? That's just wrong, legal or not. Unless they were making off with a hostage or something, or your property (in Texas only). But if they completely give up their criminal act and run away there is no reason to shoot them.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    651
    As long as the person is on the other side of my door, I will not shoot. I will call 911 and let them handle it. As soon as the door is busted open, then I would have to make that decision. If it is just a drunk unarmed neighbor, most likely not, if I do not know them all is far game
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

    --Thomas Jefferson --

  8. #8
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    22,415
    Person has turned away and is leaving, let the police handle it when they respond to the 911 call. Castle Doctrine gives you the right to protect yourself and depending on your state your property, without having to retreat first. It does not grant you the right to shoot someone in the back as they are leaving your property.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    835
    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    I was listening to some good 'ol conservative talk radio on the way in this morning and the talk show host asked the question, when do you not shoot.

    The talk show host mentioned the TX Castle Doctrine as signed in 2007 by Gov. Perry stated that we no longer had to try to flee first (like I would anyway and get myself shot in the back) but that we can now, legally, shoot at the perception of danger.
    All that the castle doctrine did was to eliminate a duty to retreat. It did not repeal the rule of common sense. My view of the common sense application is that if I have a question in my mind as to whether or not I should shoot, then in all probabilitly, the time to shoot has not arrived. On the other hand, if and when the critical time arrives, then there probably will be no question whatsoever in my mind. Survival instinct will kick in.

    Example:

    QUESTION: "Is that incoming or outgoing artillery?"

    ANSWER: "If you feel a need to ask, you can feel safe in knowing that it is outgoing artillery. When the real thing comes in, there will be no question in your mind, and you will not need to ask."

  10. #10
    Member Array bonehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    474
    I'm no lawyer, but I think people interpret WAAAAY too much into the Castle Doctrine. How well do you think it would hold up in court if you shot someone in the back just because you 'thought' they posed a threat to you and your home? Come on. Attorneys would have a field day with that.

    "Your honor, that Girl Scout was knocking incessantly on my door and wouldn't stop. I thought she was ready to beat the door down so I shot her as she was walking away". Yeah right. Good luck with that

    (Just in case anyone was rolling their eyes, I was trying to be sarcastic to emphasize my point)

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    McKinney, TX
    Posts
    3,507
    Let me add that I never indicated that I would shoot anyone in the back, to me they are no longer a threat. Now if they stop and turn and make any movements otherwise then I may take action.

    I was merely posing a question. I personally would want to see either a body part forced through my door or a barrel of some firearm before I shoot.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley New York State
    Posts
    4,207
    Paco, that would be an illegal assault in NY. The only time you can use lethal force is if you are in direct and imminent danger of harm. If the BG has his back to you, the threat is (technically) not there, and you cannot shoot. I agree with you that I would be on the phone to 911, and keep him in my sights.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,105
    I think this is one of those ones where we really need to know our own state's laws forwards, backwards and inside out. What could get JonInNY room and board in Attica for the next thirty years could get me a good guy letter from the sheriff here in Texas.
    That being said, just because I could legally shoot someone does not mean I would shoot them. If there is no indication of continued threat towards me or others, call 9-1-1 give a location, description, and direction of travel.

    There are people that get paid to deal with situations/people like that, and with the economy being in the state it is in, the last thing I want to do is make it look like they aren't needed!
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley New York State
    Posts
    4,207
    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I think this is one of those ones where we really need to know our own state's laws forwards, backwards and inside out. What could get JonInNY room and board in Attica for the next thirty years could get me a good guy letter from the sheriff here in Texas.
    +1 That is very well said. It's incumbent on all our members to be aware of what's legal or not with CCW in their own state, or one they are legally carrying in as a non-resident.

    And, I have absolutely no desire to see the inside of Attica.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    You cannot legally shoot somebody running away,the threat is over and you will find yourself in deep doo doo,The Joe Horn case was a burglary in progress and the BG's were running away with property.I personally will not shoot unless there is a fear of death or great bodily harm,in other words you have entered my house,or out in public I have a great fear of bodily harm or death if I don't use deadly force.The castle doctrine IMHO was written to give people the right to stand their ground in their own homes and not have to worry about criminal or civil prosecution for legally defending their lives or property
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Road Rage Good Shoot / Bad Shoot
    By Hot Wing in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: July 13th, 2010, 07:54 PM
  2. Simple Shoot - No Shoot test Online
    By First Sgt in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 265
    Last Post: July 12th, 2010, 05:18 PM
  3. Interesting shoot no shoot at the local Wally World.
    By Riccur in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: January 27th, 2010, 01:47 PM
  4. Good Shoot/Bad shoot? Pastor Killed
    By Rustynuts in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: September 3rd, 2009, 10:50 PM
  5. To shoot or not to shoot...ammo shortage
    By wormy in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: June 15th, 2009, 05:51 AM

Search tags for this page

scenarios when you may shoot

,

shoot someone running away from you

Click on a term to search for related topics.