CC for SD, not to defend others.

This is a discussion on CC for SD, not to defend others. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There are no absolutes...I default to defending me and mine only. However, it depends on the situation...and use my best judgment....

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Thread: CC for SD, not to defend others.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    There are no absolutes...I default to defending me and mine only. However, it depends on the situation...and use my best judgment.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  3. #17
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    I plan to help. I think that 100 years ago in this country this topic would have seemed ridiculous. EVERY person would answer "of course" we would help others.
    It is because of the op's attitude (and others like him) that crime and criminals are flourishing in the US today. Selfishness is killing our country in every way. Protect an innocent? Uhmm no. Help our community? Uhmm no. Practice ethical business principles? Uhmm no.

    Forum rules prohibit me from using words like "cowardly" so at this time I'll sign off.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  4. #18
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I plan to help. I think that 100 years ago in this country this topic would have seemed ridiculous. EVERY person would answer "of course" we would help others.
    It is because of the op's attitude (and others like him) that crime and criminals are flourishing in the US today. Selfishness is killing our country in every way. Protect an innocent? Uhmm no. Help our community? Uhmm no. Practice ethical business principles? Uhmm no.

    Forum rules prohibit me from using words like "cowardly" so at this time I'll sign off.
    Sorry, but IMO it is not cowardly to decide not to intervene with the use of "deadly force" when confronted by a scenario in which it may not be clear about what is really going down. The consequences of mistakingly using deadly force can be devastating, not only to the intervenor, but also to his or her family.

    In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that not only is it not cowardly, but rather it is irresponsible to put our families at risk, in terms of our being jailed or financially ruined, by using deadly force unless it is clear beyond doubt that we are acting lawfully.

    Intervening to help someone you think needs to be helped when you are able to do so other then with deadly force to me presents a very different decision, with different potential adverse consequences.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    If someone else is in a life-threatening situation where it is obvious what is going on and I think I can do something (rather than just getting killed), I would help.

    I do not expect keys to the city. I do not expect a parade. I do not even expect the thanks of the victim. I expect that people in my community will find out that I am "one of those evil people who likes guns" and I will suffer consequences. I also expect that I will sleep well that night knowing that I did what I could to help someone in dire need who did not deserve to die.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  6. #20
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    I would not try and "save the day" but depending on the situation I might design my actions fit the scenario.

    If I was in a public setting and some mad gunman was just plugging random people, and I had a clear and safe shot I would take it. In a sense I supposed this could be seen as protecting strangers but so be it.

    One of the kids at the Virginia Tech shooting, who is a CLH said he would have taken the clear shot and ended the madness had he been able to bring his CCW to school. IMO he was not talking like a hero wannabe but rather someone who is not unlike most of us here.

    I think it would all depend on the situation. As another poster said there is not a blanket statement that would allow a stern yes/no answer in any defensive situation.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Priority #1 is myself & family.
    After that, It is hard to say.
    But if there is a "no brainer" situation like a woman crying for help with 10 BG's (Not the band) surrounding her with clear intent (like threatening her with knives). Well not for the parade, or the keys to the city, but because I could never live with myself if I could have helped, and did not, and later found that she was raped & killed.
    That's not "hero syndrome", that's just being a good neighbor.

    However; retsupt99 is right, there are just too many variables we might not know.
    In my example above, I might have missed the camera crew and director.
    (She might not actually be crying for help, but just singing along to the Bee Gees on her i-pod.)
    So, if you're gonna jump in to help someone, know that you are jumping into a very dangerous and unknown situation. At least start out being a good witness for the testimony at the BG's (not the band) trial.
    Use good judgment and know that YOU, and you alone are responsible for YOUR actions.
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Why is the only honorable option being a sheepdog when it comes to SD and CC?
    It isn't.

    Only you can know, given your situation and life's circumstances. A person has many responsibilities and duties in this life. It's also the only one you get issued. Screw up the ending, and there will be a whole host of things you fail to achieve, ranging from raising a child to protecting a family. IMO, others' blind opinions of your own sheepdogginess should be the least of your worries.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    It's not all about helpless

    The person who do not own guns could of did something stupid in youth which prevents them from ever owning guns. Also, they could be in a financial position where to own a gun may mean not putting food on the table.

    As for running to a neighbors house to protect them, I would not do that.

    But if I were in a restaurant eating and someone came in shooting up the place, then I would intervene, even though my life and family's life is not in "immediate" danger. I would stop the threat.
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

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  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    There are no absolutes...
    I disagree emphatically: there are indeed absolutes. Trick is, knowing what they are and how to apply them in a situation where I'm faced with competing absolutes. The situation doesn't change the abolutes, but rather presents a unique mix of their application... which can give one hives as one tries to sort it out. It's rough trying to work through the nuances while sipping a nice cup of coffee in front of my computer, it will be rough sorting it out in the mayhem of the moment, and unless I make exactly the right call at the time it will be rough as I rehash it millions of times afterwards.

    I'm absolutely supposed to protect the innocent.

    I'm also absolutely supposed to protect and provide for my family.

    It seems in general terms that by my being 'assigned' specifically to them, so to speak, protecting and providing for my family trumps protecting the poor Joe in the convenience store.

    I agree with most of the posts here, which outline variations on the theme of "I'll do what I can if 1) it is very clear what is going down and 2) I can do so without putting my family at risk." And SigGuy229 is certainly right: I'm going to have to use my judgment in each situation - may we all do so wisely. And fast.

    I also see that even if I'm not injured, and EVEN IF IT IS COMPLTETLY RIGHTEOUS, my actions can certainly bring my family to financial ruin by my being in jail, losing my job, and having to pay legal fees for the rest of my life. This violates the "provide for family" part, and should I lose my carry permit would harm my ability to protect them. So I'm inclinded to be pretty cautious about stepping in. Thank God I stay out of areas/situations where I might have had to make such a decision. I guess that's a decision of it's own.

    Now let me rehash that a few million times...
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    My rule is "It is not my problem until it becomes my problem".

    Actimmy, I am sorry you feel the way you do. To each their own.

    Walking into an incident under way (READ - it started before you got there) and taking action it foolhardy at best. Here is an example for you.

    You hear a sickening smack. You turn and you see a man hit a woman...HARD. She gets knocked back onto the ground. The man pulls a gun and aims it at her as she starts to get up. What do you do?

    Did you just decide to pull your gun and shoot the man?

    Did you see the knife that the woman was holding in her hand, and the trickle of blood coming from the mans throat before you placed three in his chest? Did you know that this woman watched the guy cash in $1000.00 in lottery tickets at the gas station on the corner? Did you know that she came up behind him, placed the knife against his throat and told him to give up the money?

    No. You heard a noise, you saw a man hit a woman to the ground and pull a gun. You saw a fellow CC defending his life, and you shot him.

    That is my biggest fear of CC with the lack of training that some states require. Being shot by another when I am defending my life because the other person, with good intentions, did not know what was going on and shot the guy with the upper hand.

    Here is another for ya,

    You hear a woman screaming as you are walking through the park. You go to investigate. You see a man beating the crud out of a woman. She is beat pretty badly, and no longer reacting to the hits. You draw your weapon and order the guy to stop and get on the ground. He comes at you, you fire.

    The lady as it turns out is the guys wife, and loves him. "He doesn't mean to hurt me. He loves me." and sues you for everything you own.

    You see a car schreech to a halt in front of some elementary school kids in front of a movie theater. A man jumps out and grabs one of the kids and throws the kid in the car. Child abductor or PO'd parent getting their kid who was grounded and snuck out the bedroom window?

    If you do not know the parties involved, do not get involved. If you did not see everything from the start, do not get involved.

    Now as others have stated, there are obvious things where you would be in the right. Mall shooting, and you correctly identify a person randomly shooting people. Little doubt that is the BG.

    At work, and the guy that just got fired comes back in and starts shooting, again, you are in the right ethically, but may still be screwed legally.

    On edit...again (damn cat): I wanted to clarify the need to correctly identify the BG. There is another thread running here about shooting at work. This would apply to a school shooting as well if you are a student.

    Most offices are comprised of rat maze cubicles and adjoining hallways and conference rooms. You hear shooting. You decide to go do something about it. As far as you know, you are the only person at work that CC's, and with good reason. That is not something you talk about around the water cooler. You come across Bob as he is coming out of a conference room, or hallway, and Bob is holding a gun. Is Bob the shooter, or is Bob doing the same thing you are? Does Bob think you are the shooter? I hope it is a Mexican standoff until either the police arrive, or more shots are fired from somewhere where you two are not.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    I would not try and "save the day" but depending on the situation I might design my actions fit the scenario.

    If I was in a public setting and some mad gunman was just plugging random people, and I had a clear and safe shot I would take it. In a sense I supposed this could be seen as protecting strangers but so be it.

    One of the kids at the Virginia Tech shooting, who is a CLH said he would have taken the clear shot and ended the madness had he been able to bring his CCW to school. IMO he was not talking like a hero wannabe but rather someone who is not unlike most of us here.

    I think it would all depend on the situation. As another poster said there is not a blanket statement that would allow a stern yes/no answer in any defensive situation.
    Well said...
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    NRA member

  13. #27
    Member Array jdivence's Avatar
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    I would be much more hesitant to intervene then to draw in my own defense. I would have to be a witness to the whole situation not just walking up to the situation unless you are 100% sure who the BG is it is better to just be a good witness to LEO
    God invented cops so that firemen could have heroes too!

  14. #28
    Member Array yzcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    My rule is "It is not my problem until it becomes my problem".

    Actimmy, I am sorry you feel the way you do. To each their own.

    Walking into an incident under way (READ - it started before you got there) and taking action it foolhardy at best. Here is an example for you.

    You hear a sickening smack. You turn and you see a man hit a woman...HARD. She gets knocked back onto the ground. The man pulls a gun and aims it at her as she starts to get up. What do you do?

    Did you just decide to pull your gun and shoot the man?

    Did you see the knife that the woman was holding in her hand, and the trickle of blood coming from the mans throat before you placed three in his chest? Did you know that this woman watched the guy cash in $1000.00 in lottery tickets at the gas station on the corner? Did you know that she came up behind him, placed the knife against his throat and told him to give up the money?

    No. You heard a noise, you saw a man hit a woman to the ground and pull a gun. You saw a fellow CC defending his life, and you shot him.

    That is my biggest fear of CC with the lack of training that some states require. Being shot by another when I am defending my life because the other person, with good intentions, did not know what was going on and shot the guy with the upper hand.

    Here is another for ya,

    You hear a woman screaming as you are walking through the park. You go to investigate. You see a man beating the crud out of a woman. She is beat pretty badly, and no longer reacting to the hits. You draw your weapon and order the guy to stop and get on the ground. He comes at you, you fire.

    The lady as it turns out is the guys wife, and loves him. "He doesn't mean to hurt me. He loves me." and sues you for everything you own.

    You see a car schreech to a halt in front of some elementary school kids in front of a movie theater. A man jumps out and grabs one of the kids and throws the kid in the car. Child abductor or PO'd parent getting their kid who was grounded and snuck out the bedroom window?

    If you do not know the parties involved, do not get involved. If you did not see everything from the start, do not get involved.

    Now as others have stated, there are obvious things where you would be in the right. Mall shooting, and you correctly identify a person randomly shooting people. Little doubt that is the BG.

    At work, and the guy that just got fired comes back in and starts shooting, again, you are in the right ethically, but may still be screwed legally.

    On edit...again (damn cat): I wanted to clarify the need to correctly identify the BG. There is another thread running here about shooting at work. This would apply to a school shooting as well if you are a student.

    Most offices are comprised of rat maze cubicles and adjoining hallways and conference rooms. You hear shooting. You decide to go do something about it. As far as you know, you are the only person at work that CC's, and with good reason. That is not something you talk about around the water cooler. You come across Bob as he is coming out of a conference room, or hallway, and Bob is holding a gun. Is Bob the shooter, or is Bob doing the same thing you are? Does Bob think you are the shooter? I hope it is a Mexican standoff until either the police arrive, or more shots are fired from somewhere where you two are not.

    Could not agree more.
    ((Place funny, whitty comment here))

  15. #29
    Member Array hybrid's Avatar
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    never get involved in 3rd party disputes, it's not even a gray area

    no 3rd party disputes

    unless it's *knock* *knock* super captain obvious batman I got to do something yeah I would help, but CC is for SD only.
    NO 3rd party disputes

    The power of imagination is the key to life.

    It helps you think ahead, consider the possibilities,and prepare you for the future.
    If you lack that ability, you're no different from livestock trapped behind a fence.

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Hybrid, have you considered 3rd party disputes?
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