CC for SD, not to defend others.

This is a discussion on CC for SD, not to defend others. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sticks post #25 pretty much says it all. I just couldn't come up with any realistic scenarios. Thanks sticks!...

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Thread: CC for SD, not to defend others.

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Sticks post #25 pretty much says it all.

    I just couldn't come up with any realistic scenarios.

    Thanks sticks!
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Just asking a question.

    I think it is important to help others, but why does honor and charity extend to defending others who have not armed themselves.

    I might, defend someone, I might not. But my #1 goal when I practice with a handgun and CC is to defend myself and my family (maybe friends) in a SD situation.

    So often on this site I see threads about sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. Why is the only honorable option being a sheepdog when it comes to SD and CC?
    I'll stand by my original post. To Ron and Sticks: Both of you used the excuse of not knowing all the facts. I agree with you on this point. I think it would be silly to act with deadly force if you had any doubts as to who the bad guy(s) are.

    I quoted the OP to re-illustrate, in case anyone forgot, that there is no mention of confusion or any hypothetical situations. We could what if this for a thousand years and still not cover every scenario. I highlighted the OPs question and I will refer to my previous answer. Defending others is the only honorable option. Honorable, meaning doing something that would earn you honors. Hiding or running away would be safe, but not honorable.

    I would like to add that I do understand the fear of flesh eating lawyers and financial ruin. You would be a fool if you didn't factor that in to your thinking. As for me, if I'm in a situation where the BG's are clearly identified, but the outcome is unsure and innocent people are dying I GO! We have talked about shooters before and my answer was, is and will be, I go.


    From dictionary.com:

    [I] hon⋅or⋅a⋅ble   

    –adjective
    1. in accordance with or characterized by principles of honor; upright: They were all honorable men.
    2. of high rank, dignity, or distinction; noble, illustrious, or distinguished.
    3. worthy of honor and high respect; estimable; creditable.
    4. bringing honor or credit; consistent with honor.

    hon⋅or   –noun
    1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.
    2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.
    3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.
    4. such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.
    5. high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Sticks #25 and many other assume, and we all know what happens when we assume, that the people saying they would help their fellow man are going to go into the scenario blindly.

    Just because someone says that they would be willing to help another person in need doesn't mean they turn their brain off and go in guns blazing.

    BTW, in the post #25, if they guy had hit the girl and she no longer was holding a knife, and he proceeded to draw and fire on the unarmed woman, he would be the agressor. In many states you would be justified in shooting the guy at that point.

    The guy hitting his wife past the point where she is defending herself, in many states you are justified in using force to stop the guy from beating her senseless.

    Don't forget that even if someone else starts something, once someone uses more force than is necessary to stop the threat, they themselves are the agressor and are in violation of most states laws.

    Don't read more into peoples post than what is written. Just because someone says they will help their fellow man, does not mean they are not going to use their brain before acting.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I plan to help. I think that 100 years ago in this country this topic would have seemed ridiculous. EVERY person would answer "of course" we would help others...
    In a time when LEO as we know it did not exist. In a world where everyone would say "of course" it is is easy to answer what you would do, you would do the same as everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...It is because of the op's attitude (and others like him) that crime and criminals are flourishing in the US today...
    Right. It is my fault for the flourishing rape, theft, and murder. I'm at fault for the BG. Well I guess the unarmed citizen, as they are making themselves the target, is also helping to make crime flourishing. I doubt you think the BG is free from blame. So almost everyone is at fault but you.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...Forum rules prohibit me from using words like "cowardly"...
    I'm more then willing to help another in need. I have put my life on the line to save others. But when it comes to firearms, and the real world situations I can imagine, even your heros from 100 years ago were very practical about the odds.

  6. #35
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    Thanis it's not your fault. It's the attitude that you reflected in your post. Keep in mind that you posted the question. My response to your question was not an indictment of you, it was only directed at you because you brought it up. Not because I see you as the bad guy. The me first attitude is what is killing America, and in more ways than one.

    Now to your above comments.
    1. They had plenty of police 100 years ago. I would not do the same as everyone else, I would do what I feel is right.
    2. Bad guys can't flourish if, as a society as a whole, we shoot them frequently. :)
    3. I hope you never have to risk your life again, but if the situation arises I hope you act.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    I can't agree with you that the LE and nature of public aid 100 years transitions into today's world.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    .. My response to your question was not an indictment of you, it was only directed at you because you brought it up...
    Guilty, I did take it personally, and it is just an internet post.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Thanis it's not your fault. It's the attitude that you reflected in your post...
    However, my attitude has been to practice and arm myself. My attitude nor my future actions can be to blame for the BG.

    CC is for SD. It is fine to come to the aid of another via your firearm, but IMO, it should be close to absolute that your actions are appropriate. The action of the armed citizen is not merited by a sheepdog attitude or the gift of aggression, while the actions of Military and LEO are.

  8. #37
    Member Array hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Hybrid, have you considered 3rd party disputes?
    yes, this is more or less how I feel about them.

    Boxer vs 2 Guys
    even thou this video is a really bad example thou
    NO 3rd party disputes

    The power of imagination is the key to life.

    It helps you think ahead, consider the possibilities,and prepare you for the future.
    If you lack that ability, you're no different from livestock trapped behind a fence.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Sticks #25 and many other assume, and we all know what happens when we assume, that the people saying they would help their fellow man are going to go into the scenario blindly.

    Just because someone says that they would be willing to help another person in need doesn't mean they turn their brain off and go in guns blazing.
    Great point for all of us to consider, in these types of discussions. Likewise, folks who appear to require fair certainty of the players prior to offering assistance also shouldn't be assumed to be unwilling to help others in need.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #39
    Member Array snip's Avatar
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    One thing that i have noticed in this thread and in many other threads is that it is assumed in a given situation you will clear leather like in post #25 all situations had the gun out and some had already fired. But in most of those situations it was not necessary to draw your weapon yet.

    Some people will say that they will help others when the situation arises, myself included. This being a SD forum most stuff is put in context of using a weapon. But I would suspect that those that are saying that they will help others are also the person who will stop and help you push your car out of traffic after you have stalled and cant get it started again. They will offer to jump your car in a parking lot if you cant get started. I am certain that many other people will do that too not just the ones that will put them self in harms way.

    Also the whole you don't know the situation so one must not intervene is, in my mind, not a valid point as you can always make an attempt to put your self in the situation. Verbal commands work great for this in the case of someone getting beat up. Perhaps some physical intervention in placing your self in between the 2 people fighting. the options are about limitless as are the situations that you can find your self in.

    But in all this regardless of what you do in defense of others the biggest thing to remember is that your brain is your most important weapon and to never leave home without it. One must use there head to figure out the best course of action if any is able to be taken.

    Some times nothing can be done. In a forum where you can manipulate settings and events we will almost always come out winning since nobody likes to admit defeat.

    All that said I think that those that put forth and promote the helping of others (at least for me personally) means that they will do all that is possible for them to do given any such situation that they might encounter.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hybrid View Post
    never get involved in 3rd party disputes, it's not even a gray area
    What do you define "third-party disputes" to be? Rapes, murders, robberies ... all clearly being done by others beyond the first person. Mere "junkyard dog" altercations between two folks you don't know? Something else?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #41
    Member Array hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    What do you define "third-party disputes" to be? Rapes, murders, robberies ... all clearly being done by others beyond the first person. Mere "junkyard dog" altercations between two folks you don't know? Something else?
    anything thats not obvious like rapes, murders and robberies, those are not arguments.

    dont get me wrong I would definitely help somebody out, with or without a handgun.
    NO 3rd party disputes

    The power of imagination is the key to life.

    It helps you think ahead, consider the possibilities,and prepare you for the future.
    If you lack that ability, you're no different from livestock trapped behind a fence.

  13. #42
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    I wouldn't lock myself into a concrete Yes or No.

    Much would depend on the scenario and how quickly and accurately I could access the situation. Two guys fist fighting...I'm walking away.

    Some dude ready to whack a little kid on the head again with a baseball bat...I'm getting involved A.S.A.P. as it's pretty doggone obvious that no little kid deserves to be violently beat to death.

    Police officer in obvious dire trouble...I'm getting involved.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Third party disputes.

    Rape: That is still a dicey one. Lots of people have kinky fetishes and fantasies. I don't get it, but to each their own. That is a call 911, order them to stop, the police have been called. Hopefully if it is a kinky fetish they will drop character and be very compliant. If it's not a fetish, you will know who the BG is.

    Murder: Before or after the fact? Again, you had better be darn sure who the BG is. If it is after the fact, what is done is done, the victim (or BG) is no longer at risk. Now it is a matter if your life is in imminent danger. If your state allows you to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon, then you would be in the right. If not, then your state will call you a vigilante and hang you out to dry.

    Robberies: Again, a decision needs to be made if yours or someone else's life is in imminent danger (more than likely that is a yes given the latest trends).

    A fight between two people: Call 911, order them to stop. If the scales are severely tipped (Arnold Schwarzenegger fighting Andy Rooney) or one of them pulls a weapon, it might be clear, only if your were there from the start. Too many variables to calculate.

    Look guys. I understand your concern over the decline of the USA. We only have ourselves to blame. Things have gotten waaaaay out of control. Raising a child with discipline is difficult at best (thank you sheep for making a spanking, child abuse) The majority of people in this country want the government to run their lives for them, raise their children for them.

    Shall issue CC is a huge step in bringing back this country from the brink of anarchy. baby steps, very careful ones. We all do our part.

    Fix the judicial system, that is most definitely our next priority. Put a stop to civil lawsuits via the trickle down theory. Just because I sold a gun to a guy (through a FFl), and he failed to be responsible with it and it was stolen, should not give the victim of a crime that weapon was used in the right to sue me, or the bonehead that had it stolen.

    My dog bit your child. Your child should not have been reaching over the top of the fence (or through it) hitting and poking my dog with a stick.

    Your husband robbed a restaurant that I was eating at and put me in fear of my or someone else's life, especially after he beat the manager senseless with the gun. Your husband made a choice, I stopped the threat, you do not get to take everything I own because your financial provider died because of his choice.

    Your husband died outside and down the street from a gas station because the robber was a bad shot and missed me while I was stopping the threat to myself and the cashier who had already been shot in the shoulder. You are not entitled to everything I own. I am sorry for your loss, very much so.
    Last edited by Scott; December 15th, 2008 at 07:55 AM. Reason: removed comment not on the topic
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    If someone else is in a life-threatening situation where it is obvious what is going on and I think I can do something (rather than just getting killed), I would help.

    I do not expect keys to the city. I do not expect a parade. I do not even expect the thanks of the victim. I expect that people in my community will find out that I am "one of those evil people who likes guns" and I will suffer consequences. I also expect that I will sleep well that night knowing that I did what I could to help someone in dire need who did not deserve to die.
    Well said!
    America: Your government is not ignoring you, it's insulting you.

    The Bill of Rights: Void where prohibited by law.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    If it were only as simple as a "yes" or "no" answer.

    I have made a conscious decision to arm myself for the primary purpose of protecting my family and myself. I am willing to take the consequences of my decision whatever those consequences may be. I would expect no less from those who consciously choose not to arm themselves. I am not going to assume the responsibility for someone else's decision.

    That being said, I also believe that circumstances dictate actions. If a threat to someone else also poses a direct threat to me or mine, I will do what I need to do to reduce or eliminate that threat. If that means removing me and mine from the scene, that's what I'll do. If that means drawing my weapon and exercising my index finger, then I will do that. And am willing to take the consequences of either decision.

    I am not a trained LEO, I am not a LEO wannabe, and believe me, after having spent time in a combat zone, I am no hero, and I have no aspirations to change my status from "plain old guy just trying to get by" to "hero". I am a pretty good observer and would make a hell of a good witness - at least I hope I would.

    But bottom line is, I carry for me and mine and not you and yours. As crass and selfish as that sounds, I cannot take any other attitude. My first responsibility is to my family.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

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