CC for SD, not to defend others.

This is a discussion on CC for SD, not to defend others. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree with stick and the others there are to many variables and sometimes people are not even grateful when you help anymore. stick to ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array hybrid's Avatar
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    I agree with stick and the others there are to many variables and sometimes people are not even grateful when you help anymore.

    stick to CC for yourself, family and dear friends. maybe in the future when they see us as good Samaritans instead of maniacs even then I will stay away from 3rd parties.
    NO 3rd party disputes

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  3. #47
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    My rule is "It is not my problem until it becomes my problem".

    Actimmy, I am sorry you feel the way you do. To each their own.

    Walking into an incident under way (READ - it started before you got there) and taking action it foolhardy at best. Here is an example for you.

    You hear a sickening smack. You turn and you see a man hit a woman...HARD. She gets knocked back onto the ground. The man pulls a gun and aims it at her as she starts to get up. What do you do?

    Did you just decide to pull your gun and shoot the man?

    Did you see the knife that the woman was holding in her hand, and the trickle of blood coming from the mans throat before you placed three in his chest? Did you know that this woman watched the guy cash in $1000.00 in lottery tickets at the gas station on the corner? Did you know that she came up behind him, placed the knife against his throat and told him to give up the money?

    No. You heard a noise, you saw a man hit a woman to the ground and pull a gun. You saw a fellow CC defending his life, and you shot him.

    That is my biggest fear of CC with the lack of training that some states require. Being shot by another when I am defending my life because the other person, with good intentions, did not know what was going on and shot the guy with the upper hand.

    Here is another for ya,

    You hear a woman screaming as you are walking through the park. You go to investigate. You see a man beating the crud out of a woman. She is beat pretty badly, and no longer reacting to the hits. You draw your weapon and order the guy to stop and get on the ground. He comes at you, you fire.

    The lady as it turns out is the guys wife, and loves him. "He doesn't mean to hurt me. He loves me." and sues you for everything you own.

    You see a car schreech to a halt in front of some elementary school kids in front of a movie theater. A man jumps out and grabs one of the kids and throws the kid in the car. Child abductor or PO'd parent getting their kid who was grounded and snuck out the bedroom window?

    If you do not know the parties involved, do not get involved. If you did not see everything from the start, do not get involved.

    Now as others have stated, there are obvious things where you would be in the right. Mall shooting, and you correctly identify a person randomly shooting people. Little doubt that is the BG.

    At work, and the guy that just got fired comes back in and starts shooting, again, you are in the right ethically, but may still be screwed legally.

    On edit...again (damn cat): I wanted to clarify the need to correctly identify the BG. There is another thread running here about shooting at work. This would apply to a school shooting as well if you are a student.

    Most offices are comprised of rat maze cubicles and adjoining hallways and conference rooms. You hear shooting. You decide to go do something about it. As far as you know, you are the only person at work that CC's, and with good reason. That is not something you talk about around the water cooler. You come across Bob as he is coming out of a conference room, or hallway, and Bob is holding a gun. Is Bob the shooter, or is Bob doing the same thing you are? Does Bob think you are the shooter? I hope it is a Mexican standoff until either the police arrive, or more shots are fired from somewhere where you two are not.
    Great post here....... well said......

    You bring up a great point about perception, and why using intelligence as the #1 weapon we have in any scenario is the best we can do.

    Unless we see a situation unfold from inception we cannot intervene, especially with deadly force. I always think of the "movie" scenario where one man is chasing another down the street. You never know why that person is running, or who is chasing. Who is the GG and who is the BG???

    The scenario you bring up is scary, and might well be too far gone make a call. I think anyone with a CCW has to err on the side of caution when it comes to making that call. I think at that point your CCW becomes for self defense only. And perhaps the assurance that the situation does not continue to escalate beyond what you have just walked in on.

  4. #48
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hybrid View Post
    I agree with stick and the others there are to many variables and sometimes people are not even grateful when you help anymore.

    stick to CC for yourself, family and dear friends. maybe in the future when they see us as good Samaritans instead of maniacs even then I will stay away from 3rd parties.
    Very good point. It would be far different if we CCW freaks were not so frowned upon. But since we (legally allowed) are a rare minority we are quickly lumped into the illegal carry world, or into some radical fringe of paranoid delusional tough guy wannabes.

    But I totally agree that jumping into an 3rd party situation is a bad idea. I will protect those I'm with, but not beyond that.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Bad guys can't flourish if, as a society as a whole, we shoot them frequently.
    This sums up my argument. I think I'll make it me new signature line.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  6. #50
    Member Array Bad Monkey's Avatar
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    The "wolf, sheep or sheepdog" paradigm always applies. Some sheepdogs just watch over much larger flocks than others. You decide which and how many sheep your flock includes. Obviously, as the size of your flock increases so does your liability. Your flock may include just "you and yours" and that is perfectly fine IMHO. I'm not of the opinion that your fellow citizen is owed you risking your life and/or livelihood for him simply because you choose to arm yourself. At the same time, in all societies in all times real heroes do exist and thank goodness for them. The sheepdogs that take on large flocks deserve our thanks but the sheepdogs with small flocks are still sheepdogs nonetheless.

    While my default protect mode is "me and mine" I can easily imagine some scenarios that I couldn't tolerate myself not acting upon. Situations where small children are clearly in mortal danger come immediately to mind. I hope to never have such an encounter.
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  7. #51
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    For me, it really just depends on the situation.

    Of course I'll defend myself, my family and my friends. But I hate it when innocent or defenseless people are being abused and people are just watching the world fall apart around them and not doing anything because "it ain't my problem". Wrong, it isn't your problem YET. I'm not talking about that specific situation only. I'm talking about socially. If the police are the only the thing between bad guys causing crime, no wonder this country is going to hell in a hand basket. The police can only stop crime when they are there, or try to find the guy later. If everybody allows this crap to happen, and expect the police to protect them, unfortunately, they will get what their nativity deserves. There is a different group of people who depending on the situation, would do something about it. I'm not saying that I would put on my cape and go out and save the day, but there are just sometimes that you can and should do something to make this world a slightly better place, and maybe send out a message that says, "Don't do this crap here, or this will happen to YOU!". Everybody is in a different situation when that situation happens. Mall shooting? I am a single male about to start law enforcement training. If I can help it, that shooter is going down before he can kill more. And yes, there are always variables to account for (could I be shot by a LEO, ect). Now if I had a family, that would be different. My family would come first, the shooter second.

    Basically what I'm saying is this: I think that it depends on the situation (both the one happening and your own) when it comes to acting or not. Whether is be from one of the "I'm for myself only" scrooges to "Here I am to save the day" hero incarnates, there are situations where we would and wouldn't take action, regardless of what we say on here. Obviously, the extremes on both sides are not the best courses of action. Personally, I would like the bad guys to know that they run the risk of being shot by ten bystanders the next time they try to do something that deserves it. I just wish I knew where there where nine other people to help me out.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  8. #52
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    For me, it really just depends on the situation.

    Of course I'll defend myself, my family and my friends. But I hate it when innocent or defenseless people are being abused and people are just watching the world fall apart around them and not doing anything because "it ain't my problem". Wrong, it isn't your problem YET. I'm not talking about that specific situation only. I'm talking about socially. If the police are the only the thing between bad guys causing crime, no wonder this country is going to hell in a hand basket. The police can only stop crime when they are there, or try to find the guy later. If everybody allows this crap to happen, and expect the police to protect them, unfortunately, they will get what their nativity deserves. There is a different group of people who depending on the situation, would do something about it. I'm not saying that I would put on my cape and go out and save the day, but there are just sometimes that you can and should do something to make this world a slightly better place, and maybe send out a message that says, "Don't do this crap here, or this will happen to YOU!". Everybody is in a different situation when that situation happens. Mall shooting? I am a single male about to start law enforcement training. If I can help it, that shooter is going down before he can kill more. And yes, there are always variables to account for (could I be shot by a LEO, ect). Now if I had a family, that would be different. My family would come first, the shooter second.

    Basically what I'm saying is this: I think that it depends on the situation (both the one happening and your own) when it comes to acting or not. Whether is be from one of the "I'm for myself only" scrooges to "Here I am to save the day" hero incarnates, there are situations where we would and wouldn't take action, regardless of what we say on here. Obviously, the extremes on both sides are not the best courses of action. Personally, I would like the bad guys to know that they run the risk of being shot by ten bystanders the next time they try to do something that deserves it. I just wish I knew where there where nine other people to help me out.
    I don't think that many of us take issue with what you posted. But what a lot of us are saying, however, is that we need to be very certain we know what is really happening before we would intervene and use deadly force. You don't have a quarrel with that position, do you?
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    This has turned into quite the deep philosophical discussion among our membership.

    I am going to go out on a limb here with some basic statistics about human nature.

    20% of the CC community (not just here) know what they will do if the time comes

    60% of the CC community think they know what they will do if the time comes.

    20% of the CC community have no clue what they will do if the time comes.

    Of the 4300 active members on this forum, I am guessing maybe 200 have actually been in a situation where they, in some form or another, were in a position where they used their weapon. I am only talking about CC permit carrying civilians, or off duty LEO. They are of the 20% that know.

    I am of the 60%. I live in a city where the crime really is not all that bad. It's there, and in my patch wearing days, I was a bit closer to it. Other than my truck being broken into, and some stuff stolen off my back porch, I have not been a victim of a crime. I have been subjected to stupid, and dealt with it as needed, but not a victim.

    I got my CC because I do not want to be the guy in the wrong place at the wrong time with no means to defend myself or my loved ones.

    I get the training that I can, I practice as often as I can, I think about all the possibilities to a situation either presented to me, or that I think up. I weigh the risks against my abilities and experience, to set in place a plan for how I will react.

    I am an introvert. I watch people. In my years I have seen and encountered enough stupid to last me a lifetime. It amazes me how some of these people have survived as long as they have.

    I can not change the world. I can not change our country's momentum of decline. I hold no such illusions. I can however do my part to keep me and mine from harms way. I can do my part to support our task of keeping the founding fathers plan for this country in place.

    This task does not include protecting anyone and everyone I meet from harm. This task does not require me putting my life on the line because of someone else's stupidity. This task does not enable me with the power and authority to decide who is the BG if I walk into a situation. This task does not require that I jeopardize the physical and financial well being of my family and myself for a stranger.

    Tragic crimes against people will happen. Until the judicial system (and the economy) is repaired it is only going to get worse. If I am present when it happens, and it is clear, cut and dried, I will do something to stop it. Otherwise I am a witness, a reliable witness to pass on the information to the LEOs who are charged with the duty to stop it or catch the BG.

    But have faith brothers and sisters. I will be standing next to you if there is a coordinated mass shooting by a group of people wanting to go out in a blaze of fire, and I am near by. I will be standing next to you if there is a Mumbai type of attack and I am near by. I will be standing next to you if our soil is invaded no matter where. I will not however seek martyrdom by going in alone.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I don't think that many of us take issue with what you posted. But what a lot of us are saying, however, is that we need to be very certain we know what is really happening before we would intervene and use deadly force. You don't have a quarrel with that position, do you?
    Absolutely not. I agree, we will probably not know what the full situation is in many cases. It just seems to me, that more people than I like prefer that everyone else can go heck, as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Unfortunately, we will have to rely on our own judgement in determining . I think I heard sometime in some states there is a "good Samaritan" law that protects individuals acting on behalf on others with deadly force. If there is not, that would be a good idea.

    Only an idiot (or more than one) would create a situation where it looks like to a stranger that deadly force is needed. I think that someone in the before mentioned scenarios while acting in a noncriminal way, would stop if drawn upon. It can be very confusing, but my point is, don't ever do nothing.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.
    It has little to do with inconvenience and a lot to do with liability. I, for one, would be more inclined to "get involved" if I had some assurances that my and my family's futures would not be jeopardized.

    I think I heard sometime in some states there is a "good Samaritan" law that protects individuals acting on behalf on others with deadly force.
    This is true in most states. However, Good Samaritan Laws are open to interpretation and do not preclude anyone from civil proceedings. Nor do they preclude one from prosecution if one is found negligent in any way. There is still a high degree of risk especially in the application of deadly force.

    I think that Sticks sums it up perfectly, and I applaud his extremely articulate and logical post. I have been in the 20%, and am now in the 60%. But I also realize that my first responsibility is to my family. Protection also means that I remain a viable part of my family, and I can't do that if I am in jail or involved in criminal or civil proceedings which would terminate my ability to earn a living and contribute to the well being of my family.

    I would never, ever turn my back on a "situation". But I would most likely opt to be a witness rather than a participant unless my family's or my own well being were threatened. And I truly believe that is what the majority of us are saying.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  12. #56
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    I don't think anybody knows what they will do in any given situation. The boastful brave men who carries his $3000 1911 might hide under a table when SHTF. I would like to think that I would defend someone I have never met before. A couple quotes come to mind right now. "The only thing worse than hate is apathy", and "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
    "People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people".
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  13. #57
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    Clearly, every situation is fact-specific and it is easy to spin out scenarios where the facts are not very clear. Also, in real life, we often have to act without having 100% of the facts in hand.

    Having said that, if (God forbid) I am ever in a situation where it is readily apparent from what I have seen and heard as to who an armed aggressor is, and I do not act, and an innocent person (sheep or otherwise) is gravely harmed or killed, I am not sure that I could live with the guilt that would result. I believe that a large part of the problems we have in our society today stem from the fact that so many of the "good" people are afraid to stand up and do something--whether it is something as dramatic as what we are talking about or something as simple as telling the grade-school punk on the train to quit dropping the f-bomb at the top of his voice while my little girls are sitting there having to listen to it. Everyone is afraid of what might happen.

    Well, I'm tired of being afraid and I'm tired of our society slowly sliding into the crapper. Time was where men were expected to not only defend their families, but also their towns, states, and even the country when the need arose. That "militia" of all able-bodied men is what the security of our nation rested on for many years. (No offense to you women on here, either--I know women who have far stronger warrior spirits than most men I know.) The more that we stop taking responsibility for our society the more that our society goes to pot.

    So yeah, sure, there are "grey area" scenarios and, hopefully, if such a scenario really happened, the armed citizen would be careful not to make a tragic mistake. But for every one of those scenarios there are many more every day where the "bad guy" is clear, and most people just look--or run--the other way. "Nope. Ain't seen nuthin'! Don't know nuthin'! Don't want to be involved!"

    As others have said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." There's just been too much of that in our society for far too long.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDFender View Post
    Well, I'm tired of being afraid and I'm tired of our society slowly sliding into the crapper. Time was where men were expected to not only defend their families, but also their towns, states, and even the country when the need arose. That "militia" of all able-bodied men is what the security of our nation rested on for many years. (No offense to you women on here, either--I know women who have far stronger warrior spirits than most men I know.) The more that we stop taking responsibility for our society the more that our society goes to pot.

    So yeah, sure, there are "grey area" scenarios and, hopefully, if such a scenario really happened, the armed citizen would be careful not to make a tragic mistake. But for every one of those scenarios there are many more every day where the "bad guy" is clear, and most people just look--or run--the other way. "Nope. Ain't seen nuthin'! Don't know nuthin'! Don't want to be involved!"

    As others have said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." There's just been too much of that in our society for far too long.
    Amen to that! Well said sir.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDFender View Post
    As others have said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    Having governing bodies removing their hood ornaments from our tailpipes wouldn't hurt. I strongly believe that the instant it becomes absolutely legitimate and legal (via the strongest "castle law" arrangement of protections possible), we'll see good sams pop out of the woodwork. I, for one, will be far less worried if my own government would simply put down its legal, threatening sword that's aimed at upstanding citizens. Do that, and much good will follow.
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    I am going to go out on a limb here with some basic statistics about human nature.

    20% of the CC community (not just here) know what they will do if the time comes

    60% of the CC community think they know what they will do if the time comes.

    20% of the CC community have no clue what they will do if the time comes.
    The often quoted standard is actually 10-80-10. You were close though...

    It is explained as such;

    Ten Percent of the people in this world are evil and cause most of the problems.
    They care only of themselves, only about "whats in it for them" and generally could care less if you live or die.

    Eighty Percent of the people in this world are concerned only with their immediate environment,their comfort zone. They wake up, go to work, come home and watch TV, go to bed and repeat the process...over and over and over. What they don't know doesn't concern them. They get their education from the 6 o'clock news and that is all they know. When times get hard, they get caught in the crossfire, the battle of good and evil. They die without understanding why. They are what we on this forum refer to as "sheep". They would help only themselves, and they pacify themselves by saying that they are only doing what they need to do to survive.

    The other Ten Percent of the population is Good. They understand what goes on around them, they educate themselves by various means and they understand the struggle of good vs. evil. These are the people that lead others into the realization that there is much more to life than what the eye can see or what the ear can hear. These are the people that battle evil, the same evil that has always existed in various forms. These are the ones that believe in a higher authority than themselves, the ones that would put their lives in jeopardy for someone they don't know, because it is the right thing to do.

    The thing is...it has never been any different throughout history. Its always been the same percentage.

    On any forum,group, club, workplace, team, wherever people gather the percentages are the same. The evil 10 percent are what hoses things up. The good 10 percent are what keeps things from being hosed up. The clueless people in the middle will be lead by either the good or the bad.

    Occasionally, the evil wins. An example of this is the Third Reich, or even the reign of Hussein in Iraq. Millions of people were put to death for various reasons or excuses, and the 80 percent went right along with it.

    Usually good wins, and people live in peace and in relative safety.Good will stomp out evil regimes.

    But there is always a struggle.

    All one needs to do is figure out what they want to be.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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