Stumble on LEO in distress scenario, what to do? MERGED

This is a discussion on Stumble on LEO in distress scenario, what to do? MERGED within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just so you all know this is a hypothetical scenario, but one that has bugged me since I took my CC class. What is our ...

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Thread: Stumble on LEO in distress scenario, what to do? MERGED

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    Member Array Openroad's Avatar
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    Question Stumble on LEO in distress scenario, what to do? MERGED

    Just so you all know this is a hypothetical scenario, but one that has bugged me since I took my CC class. What is our role as legal CC citizens if we come upon an officer of the law in a life threatening situation? As a disclaimer, this scenario is mostly for us rural folk as this might be a non issue in crowded metro areas where Law Re-Enforcement Officers aren't too far away.

    So here I am driving along a rural highway or county road and I see a big rotating red gumball (MSP) up ahead. There's wide open just-harvested corn fields on both sides so I have a good field of vision. I slow down quite a bit as I always do, ease to the left to give the LEO and cars some room, and pull closer to the scene. The LEO's car has the suspect vehicle lit up with his spotlight. I'm seeing the State Trooper open his door, pop on his MagLite, and prepare to walk around his door and go question the driver.

    Instead of a normal traffic stop in progress I then notice a man lunge from the drivers door of the suspect vehicle, crouch down, and a double set of bright flashes pop from the suspect's hand. A second shadowy figure slinks out the passenger side of the suspect vehicle and disappears behind the trunk of the suspect sedan. The LEO races to seek cover behind his own trunk and is no doubt about to return fire. I am within 50' of the LEO vehicle and it seems both parties are so far oblivious to my presence, though not for long.

    STOP! What do I know at this point:

    • I have my CC 9mm (17 rounds) on me and my 5" 1911 with 2 extra mags (21 rounds) in the console of my truck.
    • Being a lifetime northern Michigan local (insert your rural locale here) I know backup for LEO is 15-45 minutes away.
    • At least 2+ BG are involved willing to trade shots with a LEO
    • I have no idea the caliber or type of weapon BG(s) possess
    • Only one LEO on site with police issue sidearm only at present unknown ammunition amount.
    • Backup is at least 15 minutes away if not more
    • The officer at the trunk is now more or less cut off from his shotgun/carbine access
    • LEO has no idea who I am and may well pivot to draw on me assuming I'm BG number 3 coming in from behind.
    • I am already involved and my next move will be 2nd guessed by everyone later.


    Nightmare scenario? Yes
    Likely to happen? Of course not common, but this still is a scenario not unlikely around my home town where meth labs and pot farms are more common than most locals would like to think.

    My options as I see them:
    1. Stop my vehicle where it offers me the most cover and the LEO a retreat point. Exit on the "cover" side of my vehicle and yell loudly to the officer I am citizen legally carrying a weapon and I'm there to assist him. Help LEO attempt to eliminate BG(S) to the best of my untrained ability.
    2. Using my vehicle as a "shield", attempt to possibly help LEO to retreat backward or enter my vehicle and retreat to a position not pinned down.
    3. Stay far back, in fact back up further and be as expert a witness as I can while talking to central dispatch.
    4. Call 911 and explain what I saw while driving away like a rocketman!


    My CC instructor wouldn't really comment on this as I think he saw it as a hero complex situation; I am the lucky civilian that gets to save the unfortunate officer. To me it's a very serious issue that is almost more likely in my area than an assault on my person.

    I would really appreciate all of your ideas on this scenario and in particular current or past LEOs opinions. What would you want the average citizen with minor tactical knowledge and pretty good to skillful (I know I'm assuming a lot there) marksmanship to do? From the average joe, what do you see yourself doing?

    I hope this isn't seen as just a Clark Kent to Superman wet-dream, this is just about the worst situation I can see myself as a civilian involved in. I really want to see what you all come up with should we unfortunately ever find ourselves in this situation.

    Go ahead guys and girls, WWYD?
    Last edited by Openroad; December 19th, 2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Should checked my spellin!
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down & lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, & may posterity forget you were countrymen.

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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    There's way too many "if's" in this situation. You use your best judgment and hope for the best. If the situation is such that the LEO knows you are "aiding" and not another attacker .... that effects the whole situation.

    IF he's not radioed for help, I would be advising 911 there is an 'officer in need of help' at some point. But, I wouldn't set back and watch the LEO get killed by a couple of BG's either. So, I would assess and act accordingly.

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    Get the heck out of dodge:

    Bad guys point of view: "Where the heck this idiot come from? Shoot his sorry butt Orville!"
    LEO Point of View" "Darn it! It is three of them! bang bang bang!"

    All of the sudden you are alone facing three shooters.... no good
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

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    Signed: Me!

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    I personally feel you need to at least call and report of an officer in trouble. After that , you need to decide what is right according to the situation and your personal morals or reasoning.
    Sounds like a fairly unlikely scenario, especially for N.MI.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Member Array Openroad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I personally feel you need to at least call and report of an officer in trouble. After that , you need to decide what is right according to the situation and your personal morals or reasoning.
    Sounds like a fairly unlikely scenario, especially for N.MI.
    This has been true for the most part in N. MI, however in the last 6 months we've had 2 decent sized meth lab busts (Kingsley and Thompsonville areas) and an escaped fugitive from somewhere downstate that ended up here. Like most hypothetical stuff, yeah it's unlikely... but it still bugs me.

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Google "passerby cop" you will find a number of instances where this has happened. I would do all I could to help the officer.

    Michael

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    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Maybe use my car as a battering ram and try to take out the two BGs. (I drive a Crown Vic its a tank.)
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

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    Member Array concealed's Avatar
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    Could be Real

    WOW. Hard to say. However, I can give you a real life situation where an officer was being beaten inm the middle of an intersection. Had someone not stopped and helped, the outcome may have been less than desireable. Yes, there were no guns here, but it just shows how the times ahve changed. With family members in LE, I certainly have called 911, and probably more, but each situation is different. My position to the officer is crucial, as well as his condition. Is he in control with cover and no injury? Is backup reasnably close? In your case you say it could be 20 minutes or more, so I probably would pull over and maintain a safe position as long as the officer is in control.

    Good topic!

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    Ex Member Array AVIVIII's Avatar
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    Accelerate briskly. Smash BG1 into the car. You'll probably kill him. If you hit it hard enough, you might be able to get the second guy too. If not, It will give your friendly LEO an opportunity to get a better angle on BG2. Then if necessary, help take out BG2.

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    Member Array ekillian's Avatar
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    I came across a Hwy Patrol officer fighting a guy just last weekend. Oddly enough I was riding along with our local constable when it happened. So these things do happen.

    The ramming the BG car may sound like a hero complex thing... But I hafta say it would certainly cross my mind. If all goes well I'll be a peace officer by February and as such I would stop to assist. I can't get into my tactical approach because I frankly have no idea. It all depends on teh exact circumstances. Your legal obligation here in TX would be to assist if the officer requested it. Obviously that wouldn't happen as you're driving by. But just a footnote.

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    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Option 1 sounds good. "DO YOU NEED HELP OFFICER?"

    If answer is yes, let them have it
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
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    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Retreat to a safe distance beyond accurate pistol fire.
    Remove rifle from truck. Load rifle. Fire rifle at bad guys. Bad guys SOL. Call 911. Offer officer cold beer.

    Semper Fi

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    Member Array Kovernm's Avatar
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    I think that I would either circel the block or turn around down the road aways from the stop, and then again aways after I passed the stop again ( so I would be coming from behind the officer, but still far enough aways that I would not be a possible bg in his mind). As I was doing this I would be on the phone with 911 telling them what I see, who I am, what I am driving, and asking them if they can reach the officer ask him/her if they would like my assistance. Just my .02

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    Member Array Openroad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovernm View Post
    I think that I would either circle the block or turn around down the road away from the stop, and then again away after I passed the stop again ( so I would be coming from behind the officer, but still far enough away that I would not be a possible bg in his mind). As I was doing this I would be on the phone with 911 telling them what I see, who I am, what I am driving, and asking them if they can reach the officer ask him/her if they would like my assistance. Just my .02
    Not a bad plan and one that keeps you at a safer distance. I know my initial reaction would be to help the officer right away, helping people is how I was raised and how I live (car stuck in ditch, flat tire, vehicle hit a deer, etc.). However I'm more concerned with being a detriment to the officer as I'm undertrained for this situation and might be a distraction if I attempt to intervene. It really does depend on so many details, but as BkCo pointed out it helps if you bring a rifle to the gun fight. Now I just need a gun rack in my service van, don't think the company will go for that at all.
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down & lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, & may posterity forget you were countrymen.

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