Real Life Scenario

This is a discussion on Real Life Scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; While backing up could you legally "clear" your sidearm while belting out stop commands? For example, He threatens you voice commands and tell employee to ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array NEcowboy's Avatar
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    While backing up could you legally "clear" your sidearm while belting out stop commands? For example, He threatens you voice commands and tell employee to call 911. While he is approaching and searching for a weapon you are backing up. At this time can you clear cover garments and place your hand on firearm. He is still looking for his weapon can you find your firearm and leave it holtered? The way I see it is he is doing the same thing by reaching in his pockets.

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  3. #17
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    retreat first, if you can

    Retreat first, make lots of racket while you do and if you really have to then shoot.

  4. #18
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    I would at least put my hand on my weapon letting him know that I was prepared to act
    Slight correction here, you would be prepared to react and action is always faster than reaction. Many states recognize the 21' rule for a reason...at 4-5 feet he would likely be able to stick you before you could draw much less fire, and for those saying to withdraw, remember he has a large group of minors he is responsible for, how do you rapidly withdraw a large, disorganized group????? I have seen police training tapes where the cop knows exactly what the "suspect" is going to do and still can not draw and fire at 21' before getting cut, add in not knowing what is going to happen and 30' is too close, 5' you are going to buy it.

    Each situation has to be individually considered and many inarticulable factors come into play; reading body language, coherence of speech, facial expression. At the least, turn weak side toward him, extend hand to redirect an attack and loudly challenge, I would probably draw and keep my gun in close to my abdomen and be ready to fire.

    In my younger days (before both knees gave out) a snap or side kick to the knee or groin would be in order. Today, well there is a saying "Don't mess with a crippled old man, he can't fight and he can't run; he'll just stand where he is and kill you".

  5. #19
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    "Don't mess with a crippled old man, he can't fight and he can't run; he'll just stand where he is and kill you".
    Now that I am one also That means alot
    Thanks for the wise saying

  6. #20
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    Are you guys kidding me?

    The dirtbag threatens to kill your wife with his knife and then starts to pat himself as he looks for his knife?


    I pull my 45 out and point it straight at his chest while telling my wife and others to run like hell.

    If he pulls his knife out I start to put shots on target. End of discussion, no more waiting around for the police which are in no position to do a darn thing but arrive too late and take a report, no waiting for someone else to save my wifes life.

    You guys are killing me with the slow reactions and worrying about the law when your wifes life has been threatened by a guy looking for his knife !!!
    An armed citizen is a protected citizen.



    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

  7. #21
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    You were responsible for a group of kids. Best course would have been to have the restaurant manager deal with the homeless guy while you and your wife gathered your party and left the area.

    Also be sure to call police if Burger King employee's did not.

    JMHO
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    In your scenario, regarding the knife, I would get my family out of there asap. And at the same time, keep myself between him and them. If hed resisted that idea of us leaving using H2h, I would of put him on the ground.

    And at the same time, Id keep in mind, a knife is just as deadly as a gun within 10 feet. So if he had found and presented the knife, I would of sent him to meet his maker.

    In life we have to make decisions, and wither or not to draw our sidearm is and will be one of the hardest ones. And if and when such a scenario should happen again, whatever you decide, youre going to have to live with for the rest of your life. God bless

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array community's Avatar
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    until a weapon is seen, keep your holstered. try to remove yourself from the scene asap.
    Save a Greyhound. Adopt one.

  10. #24
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    Here in SC, if they tell you what they are going to do to harm you and with what instrument and around which time (all of which played out) - those threats can be used against them... As soon as he started padding around, he wouldve been on the ground, under arrest and waiting for LEOs to arrive.

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrlandoRecon View Post
    Are you guys kidding me?

    The dirtbag threatens to kill your wife with his knife and then starts to pat himself as he looks for his knife?


    I pull my 45 out and point it straight at his chest while telling my wife and others to run like hell.

    If he pulls his knife out I start to put shots on target. End of discussion, no more waiting around for the police which are in no position to do a darn thing but arrive too late and take a report, no waiting for someone else to save my wifes life.

    You guys are killing me with the slow reactions and worrying about the law when your wifes life has been threatened by a guy looking for his knife !!!
    Careful recon, this was in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia.
    Think about it.
    The report to police could be as simple as: "This poor homeless man was asking for food and the only weapon I saw was that BIG SCARY GUN that angry man was waving around."

    You will be able to offer your wife & kids plenty of (unarmed) protection when you get out of the State Pen.

    In reality, as soon as you actually see the knife, you can do what you need to do, you don't want to be the one who escalates the situation.
    As a CWP holders, we need to learn and train to keep a level head at all times.
    Its so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him, the Sheriff said.

  12. #26
    Member Array bpa00's Avatar
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    I believe that I would draw my gun on him and firmly tell him to get lost. At that distance, had he presented a knife, he could have easily stabbed you by the time you drew your weapon and got a shot off.

    Granted, who knows what would happen in Kalifornia... but I would rather take my chances in court than risk serious injury and or death at the hands of an un-stable man w/ a knife. In my state, the fact that he threatened to kill me and stated he had a knife would been more than enough grounds draw on him, if not shoot him dead right there.

  13. #27
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    4 feet was waaaaay too close...FOR HIM. When he looked down and started patting himself for a weapon he lost the initiative. In that instant I'd have been on him like a monkey on a cupcake. He'd be way behind and reactionary at this point, and he'd get hit hard with anything I had handy.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    Careful recon, this was in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia.
    Think about it.
    The report to police could be as simple as: "This poor homeless man was asking for food and the only weapon I saw was that BIG SCARY GUN that angry man was waving around."

    You will be able to offer your wife & kids plenty of (unarmed) protection when you get out of the State Pen.

    In reality, as soon as you actually see the knife, you can do what you need to do, you don't want to be the one who escalates the situation.
    As a CWP holders, we need to learn and train to keep a level head at all times.
    elkhunter

    I don't give a stink whether we are in California, Florida, or the Moon.

    If you think I'm the least bit concerned of what some police report is going to say or being in, "the State Pen" when some fool has just threatened my family and then goes searching for his weapon you are sorely mistaken. I don't need to "see" his knife as you stated before I start reacting to his threats and actions. Anyone who waits to see a knife in that scenario is foolish.

    Pulling my weapon and pointing it at his chest is a defensive reaction not an offensive one.

    Believe me, my priorities are completely in order.
    An armed citizen is a protected citizen.



    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

  15. #29
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    Leaving is not an option with a Medium/ Large youth group. Heck Not even an easy option with a small group. I am a Youth Pastor, I have worked with youth groups of 4, groups of 70 and in between.

    More than 10 and you can't just leave. So and So is in the bathroom, this kid is still in line, this one doesn't have a bag and wants to argue. Trust me, this is not an easy get out situation.

    I think you handled it well. with one of only a few valid options. Many times on conventions I am unarmed as it is difficult to secure it during the night. OC is not valid as I have just nailed my group with it as well and do any of my students have asthma? My Knife would be ready to come out and any student who knows me knows that I can go from Best Friend / Great guy to scariest guy they have met before you can blink.

    I had almost had to draw on a group trying to start something with my youth group once and that would have been very bad.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrlandoRecon View Post
    elkhunter

    I don't give a stink whether we are in California, Florida, or the Moon.

    If you think I'm the least bit concerned of what some police report is going to say or being in, "the State Pen" when some fool has just threatened my family and then goes searching for his weapon you are sorely mistaken. I don't need to "see" his knife as you stated before I start reacting to his threats and actions. Anyone who waits to see a knife in that scenario is foolish.

    Pulling my weapon and pointing it at his chest is a defensive reaction not an offensive one.

    Believe me, my priorities are completely in order.
    Your priorities are summed up in defending yourself and your family including after the event. Not considering where you are and the local laws governing CCW and the Use of Deadly Force will get you in more trouble than the initial event and I don't know what kind of protection for your family you would be if you are spending a couple of nights or months in jail while the whole event is sorted out.

    OK, so you don't care for the Laws of Men but only your safety. Let's analyze the situation: A Homeless Guy at 5 feet from you has verbally threatened you to use a knife and is making movements as if trying to retrieve such instrument. You draw your weapon to defend yourself.... in a crowded eatery. At this time you are pumped and ready for action, What might happen next? Will the guy surrender or attack? Will you be forced to use your firearm? And if you are, What's your backstop in case the rounds miss your intended target or overpenetrate? Little Susie and her 3 year old brother having a burger? The little old neighbor lady who does charity work for the local church? The High School senior behind the register trying to earn some money? Ooops! You just wounded or killed innocent people! If the remorse won't do you, regular people will. You will be looking for sympathy for your cause and will find none in the press, none with the PD or the prosecutors and none from any law abiding citizen. You will be arrested, prosecuted, probably sent to spend time at the local slammer while civil lawsuits will leave you peniless and your family at the mercy of the state.

    You are legally, morally, ethically and financially responsible for the terminal resting place of every bullet you fire. Randy Cain

    A gun is a tool, not a magic wand that fixes everything. If we take our self defense seriously, we will have a toolbox with several other tools to use before the gun. The principles of Avoidance, Deterrence and De-Escalation must be used as much as possible.
    In order to carry a gun, we must make space in ourselves by leaving the Ego at home.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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