Real Life Scenario

[semperfi.45]

No doubt, I'm a monkey on a cupcake as well. Not a hungry monkey, just a quick couple of good licks and then I'm getting off the X.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[OrlandoRecon]

Miggy,

I am not defending my position. I am STATING it.


Your whole premise is about what would happen if he attacked.

You wrote:

"Let's analyze the situation: A Homeless Guy at 5 feet from you has verbally threatened you to use a knife and is making movements as if trying to retrieve such instrument. You draw your weapon to defend yourself.... in a crowded eatery. At this time you are pumped and ready for action, What might happen next? Will the guy surrender or attack? Will you be forced to use your firearm? And if you are, What's your backstop in case the rounds miss your intended target or overpenetrate? Little Susie and her 3 year old brother having a burger? "

Your scenario is " You draw your weapon to defend yourself.... in a crowded eatery."

Your damn skippy thats what would happen.... as if it makes a difference where it is.

You go on to say "Will the guy surrender or attack? Will you be forced to use your firearm?

Well obviously if he attacks I will be forced to use my firearm, what planet are you living on?

If you think I am going to miss a man-sized target at 5ft away and hit an innocent, you are wrong again. At that point I will be bringing the fight to him (a full grown man who has just threatened my family and pulled out a knife to attack--- your scenario).

My "Ego" as you stated is centered around neutralizing an immediate threat. That means WINNING, if this is too harsh or politically incorrect for you to understand or agree with..... so be it.

[Miggy]

One of the things about situations is that they never behave the way we would want them... that is to say in our favor.

That you won't miss a shot at 5 feet? How do you know? Is the guy gonna stand there and wait for you to shoot him? Are you gonna stand there and not move when you are attacked? All of the sudden you have two bodies in motion, adrenalin pumping and trust me when I tell you, moving targets are hard to hit even at 5 feet when things are calm.

I see you are not worried about over over penetration and the possibility that your bullet may end up in another person. Kinda scary in my opinion especially if I happen to have the misfortune of being in the same area.

OK, so the guy finally attacks you, you shoot him and wound/kill him. Police shows up and start the investigation which reveals that the panhandler did not have a knife but you shot him anyway. Unless you are a very old and/or infirm individual, you will be acquainted with the principle of disparity of force. The police and then the DA and your defense lawyer will let you know that verbal threats and or fists are not enough cause in the State of Florida for the use of deadly force. They will also remind you of reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm and again, so the panhandler screaming and patting himself does not reach that. By the way, I know of a case in near Orlando (your stomping grounds) several years back where a guy was shot in the head, the bullet grazed his forehead and he responded with deadly force. The DA actually took the victim to trial... how's that for a kicker?

So if the DA decides that there was not a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm, you will find yourself accused of attempted murder (if you only wounded him), reckless disregard (for shooting a firearm in public in a crowded place and that is if you did not hit anybody else) brandishing and whatever else they can think to add to your case. You will find yourself in a storm of legal procedures, lawyer bills, bad publicity and might end up in jail.

A responsible armed citizen will think of these things prior to even exit the house. What-ifs must constantly run in his/her head and specially must design a course of action to avoid or disarm potentially dangerous situations. Firing a gun must be the last and desperate thing that one can do, not the first. I think Mas Ayoob said that troubles do not end after you defended yourself with the gun, they just started.

[KenInColo]

Four feet away, verbally abusing you and yours, threatening you with death, body language / eyes / "feel" all confirming his belief that he's ready and able to do so, and he begins digging in his pockets? Your life is at grave risk. Time to act.

At least in Oregon, the law supports my ability to defend against that degree/combination of threat (A.O.J.), though many places might penalize you for daring to defend yourself since no actual knife had yet been plunged into your skin. How much longer are you supposed to wait???

Were you backing up, guarding your family? Was he continuing to stay within a few feet, continuing to threaten you? Did you have witnesses and were they appropriately concerned/fearful for you, as well? With all of these corroborating facts occurring, do you still believe you didn't have the right to defend yourself at that instant against what was very likely to be the last thing you ever experienced?

A.O.J. Read it, then consider again the simple reality of what you experienced, specifically in regards to how quickly you and yours could have been gravely injured or killed had that felon merely decided to do the final act. Based on what you have described, here, any reasonable person would conclude that the felon's rooting around in his pockets was highly unlikely to be anything other than hunting for the weapon to do the deed.



From my vantage point, with those facts you relayed, and the degree of fear/concern you were experiencing, you were at such risk ... and you had very little time to deal with it.

+1 As The Fonz would say: Correct-a-mundo!

All the elements required for the use of lethal force were satisfied. At that point, you didn't have to wait to see what he pulled from his pocket. You also may deliver the first blow [fire the first shot] if you (that's right, you and not a reasonable person) feel that the attack is about to begin.

The way it was described, I would have drawn and waited to see what came out of his coat.

[Tangle]

Whoa, outstanding comments Miggy. I think the 'heat of the moment' is immensely underestimated by some. There are documented cases of two people emptying their guns in a gunfight and nobody got hit. So where'd the bullets go?

CCW is not a license to shoot in every situation even if on the surface it is justified. The scenario Miggy presented is a perfect example - a crowd of innocents in the background. It's a difficult situation, we certainly want to protect ourselves, but if we kill or injure innocents in the process, there's gonna be you know what to pay.

For me, this specific scenario that Miggy presented is a classic case where tactics become the pivotal factor. As previously pointed out, everything possible should be done (in this scenario) to avoid having to shoot. Give the guy some money, back away as the situation allows. If we shoot and the guy just happens to move/trip, etc. just as we shoot, who/what stops the bullet?

If one had no choice left but to shoot then perhaps, given the crowd of people and hence a very high risk of shooting an innocent, even a penetrating bullet could exit and hit an innocent, I see two options, manuevering to get a clean background, which isn't likely. Or drop down to a kneeling position or even squat and roll back to a prone position on your back and shoot. The latter positions would direct bullets away from the crowd. Of course that could result in a bullet shot into the air which isn't safe either, but it's still better than firing in the direction of a crowd of innocents.

I think the lesson here is that shooting may not always the best course of action. As I have said repeatedly, self-defense must be driven by the situation, not preconceived ideas.

[rocky]

Well put guys. At 4-5 ft. you will not have time to outdraw a attack. That being a proven fact , best to strike with hand or foot and throw off the guys plan of attack (if it comes to that).
B.G's hand drops into pocket, you better be striking or moving if not both. Retreat is not much of an option if you have a large group. In this case the B.g. was probably bluffing.

[bandit383]

A responsible armed citizen will think of these things prior to even exit the house. What-ifs must constantly run in his/her head and specially must design a course of action to avoid or disarm potentially dangerous situations. Firing a gun must be the last and desperate thing that one can do, not the first. I think Mas Ayoob said that troubles do not end after you defended yourself with the gun, they just started.

Well stated...

...also agree, if someone is moving at you only 4-5 feet away, no time to react with a firearm. At best, you clear the holster, at worst, he/she grabs the weapon and you both wrestle with the firearm, with no control who gets shot.

...and also agree...many times, the best position is to be prone.

Rick

[OrlandoRecon]

That you won't miss a shot at 5 feet? How do you know? Is the guy gonna stand there and wait for you to shoot him? Are you gonna stand there and not move when you are attacked?

You obviously don't know what "bring the fight to him" means.




Good luck defending yourself in a real encounter.

[Tangle]

I'm not Miggy, but it does seem that I, and others agree whole-heartedly with what he is saying.

We all know what bring the fight to him means. In a free fire zone that may be ok, but in some situations, as discussed in this thread, there may be better options than filling the street with bullets and endangering innocents.

[OrlandoRecon]

OK you guys keep thinking alike and I'll think differently.

[Tom G]

Call 911 and get the kids and yourself away from the situation. This guy is may go off at any minute. I would not draw on this nut unless he actually produces a weapon and tries to use it.

[MattInFla]

elkhunter

I don't give a stink whether we are in California, Florida, or the Moon.

You should be concerned - knowing where you are and what the law requires of you is a part of situational awareness.

If you think I'm the least bit concerned of what some police report is going to say or being in, "the State Pen" when some fool has just threatened my family and then goes searching for his weapon you are sorely mistaken. I don't need to "see" his knife as you stated before I start reacting to his threats and actions. Anyone who waits to see a knife in that scenario is foolish.

Pulling my weapon and pointing it at his chest is a defensive reaction not an offensive one.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You have not yet seen anything that makes this person a lethal threat. His words alone are not sufficient in Florida. See O.D. v. State 614 So.2d 23 (Fla. 2DCA 1993).

Why is this important? Because absent an imminent lethal threat, you are not justified in pointing a firearm at him. The probability is that you will be charged with Aggravated Assault.

In Florida, Aggravated Assault with a firearm carries a minimum, mandatory three year prison term.

If you're in prison, you're not defending your family.

I'd strongly recommend you buy and read a copy of Jon Gutmacher's book, Florida Firearms. If not, at least keep his number handy, because with your cavalier attitude toward the law, you're going to need a good attorney at some point.

Matt

[jensen47770]

As I am sure has been said multiple times, in California you probably would have been unarmed anyways as California is not a Shall issue state. So even if you had a CCW back then, you couldn't have legally carried it. That said, I always carry a knife and flashlight no matter what (hasn't always worked out for me, but you do what you gotta do). About the best thing to do is remove yourself from the situation, create space, and get others involved. As soon as a weapon is visible, then the best option without a gun is still to get the heck out of there.

With all that said, I carry a knife as a last resort. It is not meant to be a primary defensive weapon because IMHO the chances are very high that serious injury will occur if a knife fight starts. Unless you have training using a knife, it is not a good idea to get yourself into that sort of situation. Maybe someday CA will change.

[OrlandoRecon]

You should be concerned - knowing where you are and what the law requires of you is a part of situational awareness.



Perhaps, perhaps not. You have not yet seen anything that makes this person a lethal threat. His words alone are not sufficient in Florida. See O.D. v. State 614 So.2d 23 (Fla. 2DCA 1993).

Why is this important? Because absent an imminent lethal threat, you are not justified in pointing a firearm at him. The probability is that you will be charged with Aggravated Assault.

In Florida, Aggravated Assault with a firearm carries a minimum, mandatory three year prison term.

If you're in prison, you're not defending your family.

I'd strongly recommend you buy and read a copy of Jon Gutmacher's book, Florida Firearms. If not, at least keep his number handy, because with your cavalier attitude toward the law, you're going to need a good attorney at some point.

Matt

I am so done discussing this with you guys.


Good luck everybody.

[CR2008]

He was probably 4-5 feet away from me. He started to verbally threaten my wife and me, saying that he was going to kill us with his knife. As he is saying this, he is patting himself as if he was looking for a weapon. He was wearing an OD green field jacket. During this situation, I tried to reason with the fellow, but to no avail.

Why did you try to "reason" with someone who said they were "going to kill you" especially being so close (4-5 feet!!?!) ?

It would not depend if I were armed or not, IF I were in that same situation I would be getting away as far as I could and would not bother to "reason" with someone who may actually be armed... how would you know until being being hurt, being so close to someone who could have a knife in the pocket etc would leave you VERY LITTLE TIME AND ROOM to do much if he actually had produced the weapon.