Real Life Scenario

This happened to me a little over 11 years ago in the People's Republick of Kalifornia. I was newly married (6mo.) and was a youth pastor at a church. I took my group to Sacramento for a conference. Because of the large crowds of teenagers, the only place we could find not crowded was a Burger King which was attached to a Bus Stop. We went in and got in line, and my guys went through the line and sat down to eat. My wife and I were still in line when a scary looking homeless dude walks up to some of my kids and started bothering and threatening them. I proceeded to get involved by asking if there was a problem and the guy walked over to me and my wife. He was probably 4-5 feet away from me. He started to verbally threaten my wife and me, saying that he was going to kill us with his knife. As he is saying this, he is patting himself as if he was looking for a weapon. He was wearing an OD green field jacket. During this situation, I tried to reason with the fellow, but to no avail.

Of course, I didn't have a CCW back then, and have recently remembered this event, and was wondering how this situation could've/should've been played out if I was carrying a weapon.

The man did verbally threaten to kill us with a knife, but he never pulled a knife on us. I have shortened this as best as I can but still trying to cover the important details. The whole thing played out for somewhere between 5-10 minutes. This really happened, but I've been replaying this situation in my mind this week from a different perspective as a concealed carry person now. So we must assume for this that I'm now a CCW and what is the proper action for a CCW in this same/similar situation. Thanks.

In my opinion, the best action would be to remove yourself and the kids quickly from the situation.

He did not actually produce a weapon, so drawing on him may get you into trouble, depending on local laws and the investigating officers.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by WVConcealed

This happened to me a little over 11 years ago in the People's Republick of Kalifornia. ........
and was wondering how this situation could've/should've been played out if I was carrying a weapon.

The man did verbally threaten to kill us with a knife, but he never pulled a knife on us. I have shortened this as best as I can but still trying to cover the important details. The whole thing played out for somewhere between 5-10 minutes. This really happened, but I've been replaying this situation in my mind this week from a different perspective as a concealed carry person now. So we must assume for this that I'm now a CCW and what is the proper action for a CCW in this same/similar situation. Thanks.

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I'd say that until he presents a weapon, or assaults someone, keep your gun in the holster.
Here in CO, there is that clause about being reasonably convinced that you or someone is in danger for your/their life, that you are then authorized to use deadly force. (My paraphrase.)
The real question will be, will the jury be reasonably convinced?

Either way, it looks like you were in a tight spot.

How did it play out?
Did he just get bored and wander off?
Did you or somebody subdue him?
Or did LE show up and close the deal?

Tough call, a threat was made and he reached for an unknown object. It could be perceived he was in fact reaching for the knife he mentioned. At that time you would be prudent to believe that is exactly what he was going for.

Four feet away, verbally abusing you and yours, threatening you with death, body language / eyes / "feel" all confirming his belief that he's ready and able to do so, and he begins digging in his pockets? Your life is at grave risk. Time to act.

At least in Oregon, the law supports my ability to defend against that degree/combination of threat (A.O.J.), though many places might penalize you for daring to defend yourself since no actual knife had yet been plunged into your skin. How much longer are you supposed to wait???

Were you backing up, guarding your family? Was he continuing to stay within a few feet, continuing to threaten you? Did you have witnesses and were they appropriately concerned/fearful for you, as well? With all of these corroborating facts occurring, do you still believe you didn't have the right to defend yourself at that instant against what was very likely to be the last thing you ever experienced?

A.O.J. Read it, then consider again the simple reality of what you experienced, specifically in regards to how quickly you and yours could have been gravely injured or killed had that felon merely decided to do the final act. Based on what you have described, here, any reasonable person would conclude that the felon's rooting around in his pockets was highly unlikely to be anything other than hunting for the weapon to do the deed.

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The justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

-- Massad Ayoob

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From my vantage point, with those facts you relayed, and the degree of fear/concern you were experiencing, you were at such risk ... and you had very little time to deal with it.

ccw9mm is right...4-5 ft is too dang close

How about call LEO he has threatened to kill you

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Originally Posted by dukalmighty

How about call LEO he has threatened to kill you

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How would a felon 4ft away likely take it, if one of his threatened, potential victims were to whip out a cell phone and call 911? Worse, what if one didn't happen to have a cell phone, or happened to be alone and didn't have the luxury of having someone else in the group calling the cavalry?

I'd rather deal with the threat first, then contact the police soon after, once it was certain the immediacy of the death threat had passed. But, that's just me.

Pretty much the end result was I decided to yell at him really loud and some guy came out of nowhere and put his arm around him and peacefully led him out of the store. I then gathered my group and we quickly left.

I think if I were put in this situation again, I don't think I would draw right away, but I would at least put my hand on my weapon letting him know that I was prepared to act and would then try and put distance between the two of us.

Fortunately, things worked out for us, but it was real scary there for a while. I did learn that day that you can't reason with a person intent on threaten or hurt you. I was young country WV boy in the City in CA and was totally unprepared for a situation like this, but now things are changing. I will never be unpreapared again.

Distance is great but if you can find a table or something to use as a barrier between you even better.

Lots of circumstances. The worst of which is the state of california. He was an immediate and deadly threat He had not produced a weapon yet, but was way too close to allow for you to catch up on the situation. Most burger places I know of have very littel maneuver room too.

Hand to firearm, but still in holster unless your situational awareness indicated otherwise. Turn strong side away and indicate to wife behind you to get out of the line of threat. Loud commanding voice to "keep your hands where I can see them! ". Retreat to give yourself extra time, four feet is 20 feet too close. Expect compliance, prepare to defend yourself. Get the police involved.

Sounds like the local that grabbed him thinks of him as a harmless bum who may have some mental challenges and gets ignored/taken care of by the people in the area. You cannot ever ignore a verbal threat at close quarters. The bigger the scene you make the better the chance no one will think your just whipping out a gun to shoot someone for no reason and the better the chance the locals will do something about the guy.

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Originally Posted by bigiceman

The bigger the scene you make the better the chance no one will think your just whipping out a gun to shoot someone for no reason and the better the chance the locals will do something about the guy.

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I agree to drawing attention to what is going on. It may get you help, multiple 911 calls, and witnesses that you were not the aggressor. It may also startle them enough to give up.

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Originally Posted by WVConcealed

Pretty much the end result was I decided to yell at him really loud ...

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Enlisting the help and understanding of witnesses is all-important in these situations. YOU MUST BE SEEN to be the good guy, in such situations, else you might win the battle but assuredly lose the war.

Yelling for the assailant to "STOP! DON'T MOVE!" and "Keep your hands where I can see them!" are good for starters. You want the BG to know the jig is up. You want to ensure that you're seen as the aggrieved party, that potential witnesses will all be watching and see the situation for what it is: that you're with a family, feeling threatened, backing up and protecting them, telling an advancing assailant to stay away, and drawing/firing if needed. You want witnesses to corroborate your GG actions, despite the fact that you just used force on another person. You certainly do NOT want witnesses to only be able to state that, when they looked up, you were blasting away. (Not in California, you don't, but not anywhere really.)

The bum could have threatened to drop an atomic bomb on you too but if no weapon is seen... it's just an empty threat.

I agree, the best thing you could have done is remove yourself from the situation... armed or not. :wink: Then report him to the police.

First of all congrats on leaving California, one of the best moves I made 14 years ago. Never knew what freedom was like!!
As to your situation, as soon as he threatens my family or those I am responsible for I have the wife , customer or store employee get on the phone to 911, as the man approaches me I will back up keeping as much distance between he and I, no more retreat and he keeps approaching and searching for a possible weapon, game is on!! Does this mean I would draw, No , there are so many variables I can't say which one I would take. A lot would depend on the size and what I felt was the mental status of the attacker. Stuff happens quick, and choices are made quicker, glad it all worked out for you and yours.
NCH