Four unarmed men

Four unarmed men

This is a discussion on Four unarmed men within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You and your wife are walking through a quiet residential neighborhood, getting some exercise after a late lunch. A van approaches from behind and slows ...

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Thread: Four unarmed men

  1. #1
    Member Array banana's Avatar
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    Four unarmed men

    You and your wife are walking through a quiet residential neighborhood, getting some exercise after a late lunch. A van approaches from behind and slows down next to you as you walk. Four men jump out of the van, chasing down the two of you as you attempt to evade them. The men grab your wife and begin to drag her back to the van. All four men are unarmed. What do you do?

    Assume you are armed with your favorite pistol, but have no
    less-than-lethal means of self defense (oc spray, etc.)
    When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Dal1Celt's Avatar
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    I start to shoot at each one until they;

    1. Are dead

    2. They release my wife and retreat

    3. Police arrive
    "Without fear there can be no Courage!"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array bps3040's Avatar
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    I am going to protect my wife. They will not get her in that van. Kidnapping is a crime even when they do not have guns.
    Socialism: A great Idea...'til you run out of other people's money. Margaret Thatcher

    "A man without a gun is a subject, a man with a gun is a citizen."
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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    No need to worry about less than lethal options anyway. An assailant need not be armed to present a lethal threat to you. The general criteria is "disparity of force." Two on one, 3 on one, MOST CERTAINLY 4 on one. Even one on one sometimes (are they huge? Are you weaker/less able?) They won't have to chase me (No duty to retreat in MI), they get out and threaten me/us and I won't tell them twice to back off.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Kidnap

    Quote Originally Posted by bps3040 View Post
    I am going to protect my wife. They will not get her in that van. Kidnapping is a crime even when they do not have guns.

    Yep, I will use lethal force to protect a loved one from kidnapping, as previously noted I will continue to use said force until the threat is diminished.

    Not to mention even the State rocognizes this as a lawful use of deadly force

    § 464. Same - Use of force in self-protection.
    (a) The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting the defendant against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.
    (b) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (d) and (e) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as the person believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which the person has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.
    (c) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect the defendant against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat.
    (d) The use of force is not justifiable under this section to resist an arrest which the defendant knows or should know is being made by a peace officer, whether or not the arrest is lawful.

    § 465. Same - Use of force for the protection of other persons.
    (a) The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:

    (1) The defendant would have been justified under § 464 of this title in using such force to protect the defendant against the injury the defendant believes to be threatened to the person whom the defendant seeks to protect; and
    (2) Under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be, the person whom the defendant seeks to protect would have been justified in using such protective force; and
    (3) The defendant believes that intervention is necessary for the protection of the other person.
    (b) Although the defendant would have been obliged under § 464 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand before using force in self-protection, there is no obligation to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless the defendant knows that the defendant can thereby secure the complete safety of the other person.
    Last edited by bbqgrill; February 4th, 2009 at 09:29 AM. Reason: clarification
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  6. #6
    Member Array danxd45's Avatar
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    If four men jump out of a van and run at me and my wife, they will not get close enough to grab anyone before they are looking down the barrel of a .45

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    When anyone is involved in a crime the first rule is don't let the BG take you to another location, that's called kidnapping.
    I am the wife in the scenario here, nobody is taking me anywhere. If hubby didn't shoot, you can bet I would.
    Same applies with me and my daughter, somebody tries to grab her and they get dead.
    In a kidnapping, the BG isn't picking you up to take you to dinner, most times they are kidnapping someone for rape or murder or both.
    Nobody in this family is going with them.
    Edited to add, they may not be showing a weapon, but what is inside that van is another unknown that needs to be considered as well. End result, stays the same, nobody in this family would be getting into that van.
    Last edited by Rugergirl; February 4th, 2009 at 10:50 AM.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    If the driver is still in the van kill him first then disable vehicle ( grab keys, shoot out tires). See if rest of mob is still up for a fight now that they can't get away in van with your wife. Ventilate BGs as needed, they can't all hide behind the wife shield at the same time.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Duh. That's why you carry an extra magazine.

    And get your wife her permit and a weapon.

    AND an extra magazine for her.
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  10. #10
    Ron
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    No intent to be rude, but this is a "no brainer." Who is going to let his wife be dragged into a van when he is armed? Isn't this the reason we carry a gun, so that we can protect ourselves and our family from harm.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    No intent to be rude, but this is a "no brainer." Who is going to let his wife be dragged into a van when he is armed? Isn't this the reason we carry a gun, so that we can protect ourselves and our family from harm.

    Yepper!
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Someone's kidnapping my family member(s) right in front of my eyes? Simple situation. It requires immediate and firm action to eliminate the threat, without any wasted movement or time.

    Quote Originally Posted by banana View Post
    Four men jump out of the van, chasing down the two of you as you attempt to evade them.
    I do believe I'd have long since drawn and fired. I've got a bum hip and leg and am not running anywhere. Being chased isn't going to happen. As I most certainly wouldn't have been walking down the middle of the street, there's a bit of time to draw and begin defending. IMO, doing anything else is a waste of critical time, perhaps to a deadly degree. Pass.

    The men grab your wife and begin to drag her back to the van.
    The beauty of a firearm and a reasonable amount of training is that it has a chance to equalize the situation, even one as fast-moving and violent as a multiple-person kidnapping such as this. Particularly if all family members have trained together as part of a team effort for resisting such violence.

    Yes, the risk of being harmed is there, but I'll be damned if I will allow a family member to be forcibly taken into a waiting van where four (or, is it five, with the one at the wheel?) felons are attempting to abduct. My family member must be presumed dead, if they succeed. I won't allow it, if it's my last action performed.

    All four men are unarmed.
    Cannot possibly know this, and I'd have to be daft beyond words to assume this. Four+ violent felons are "game" for risking kidnapping, but I'm supposed to believe that they'd be inhibited by firearms/knife laws? Uh, I don't think so. That I have not yet seen any man-made weapon on a gang of four violent felons is irrelevant. Their weapon has already been displayed: it's four-on-one team tactics actually engaging in physical violence. That's enough. One more tool isn't hardly going to make it any riskier or more threatening. It's already a deadly situation that has little recourse.

    Assume you are armed with your favorite pistol ...
    The threat gets terminated, as quickly and effectively as I am able to achieve. I will not allow a family member to be kidnapped right in front of my eyes. The last thing I'm going to do is traipse along up the use-of-force ladder until I come to an effective tool. The threat gets terminated, by the most effective means I have at my disposal.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I'll go Tasmanian Devil on them to get her released and then I'll turn up the "heat" if they keep on.

    My Wife will NOT be getting in that van, I know she will be fighting her butt off as well. If they grab my spunky red head, while I am there, they better have more than 4 guys; and she better leave me at least 1 to work over.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    No intent to be rude, but this is a "no brainer." Who is going to let his wife be dragged into a van when he is armed? Isn't this the reason we carry a gun, so that we can protect ourselves and our family from harm.
    Well, hypothetically speaking...... Not all marriages are as happy as yours. Hypothetically speaking of course.....

    In Texas the guys might as well all be wearing T-shirts and hats with bullseyes on them.

    ETA: Of course I will look for the one wearing a fanny pack or a photographers vest because everyone knows you are supposed to shoot him first!
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  15. #15
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    Outside of the obvious answer, this is a time you really need to know your limitations, and the time that you will really wish you had some real training.
    Four BG's all fighting and tangling with you nda your wife at unknown distances will make for some tough shots. Hopefully, the display and after the first one goes down will end the situation. If not, god help you if you have no real skill.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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