40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious - Page 6

40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious

This is a discussion on 40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dukalmighty As soon as a couple of them got dropped the rest would scatter like the cockroaches they are Pretty much spot ...

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Thread: 40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious

  1. #76
    Member Array knifeone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    As soon as a couple of them got dropped the rest would scatter like the cockroaches they are
    Pretty much spot on.

    1) I'd quickly position myself in a prime, tactical position.

    2) I'd yell that the cops are on their way. Most of their attention would be on me. The "real" bad one's would probably still be doing what they were doing.

    3) If that didn't cause them to stop, I'd be shooting the one's who I deemed as the main perpetrators of the group.

    4) After one shot, I can absolutely guarantee you that they'd all be running. Heck I probably wouldn't even HAVE to shoot anyone. Just one warning shot itself would do the trick.

    5) These aren't your typical hardened criminals. They aren't going to be waiting around or coming at you. Just a bunch of punks looking for an easy target with most not wanting to get involved themselves at all and only feel safe because they're in such a large group.

    This sounds like a lot, but it would all happen in a matter of not too many seconds.

    If you want to get real simple, down to the nitty gritty, this is all it would take:

    Draw gun, yell freeze. If for some bizarre reason, this outrage doesn't end right then and there, start taking them out.


  2. #77
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD45Golfer View Post
    Let's all remember back to CCW training, if you are not directly threatened you have no right to use force.
    ...as soon as you pull the trigger and "take out the lead guy" as some of you "swear" you'll do (which i still don't believe half of you, the internet is a great place to talk up your ego on what you MIGHT do), you have now committed murder and you are no better than them.
    Is that what they teach you in Michigan? That if you are not directly threatened, you have no right to use force? You can't protect your family? Not even to protect the life of another that is being attacked?

    And no, it would not be considered 'murder' by the sane. Homicide, yes. But killing somebody that is in the act of what could logically be considered 'murderous intent' upon another person, IMO, would not qualify as murder.
    That's my 2 cents.



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  3. #78
    Member Array Ropedartman's Avatar
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    Proper positioning, warning that you have called the police and try to get as many as possible to run away. If anyone comes at me or is still going at it, then I would do what I had to do. Like it's been said, most of these losers are just gawking, I definitely would not open fire on a bunch of gawkers. I can't imagine many on this forum would stand by and do absolutely nothing, regardless of the law's finer details!
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  4. #79
    Senior Member Array Jackle1886's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    Is that what they teach you in Michigan? That if you are not directly threatened, you have no right to use force? You can't protect your family? Not even to protect the life of another that is being attacked?

    And no, it would not be considered 'murder' by the sane. Homicide, yes. But killing somebody that is in the act of what could logically be considered 'murderous intent' upon another person, IMO, would not qualify as murder.
    That's my 2 cents.



    That is not what is taught in MI. We can legally protect our family or another member of our party, you don't have to PERSONALLY be threatened. If my friend or family member is being threatened, then I take that as threatening me as well. The law states that we have to be in danger or threatened of great bodily injury or death. So there is a gray area about helping others. But in this situation...I think stepping in to stop the attack would be a good call. I would not be able to just sit by idly while he was mugged/attacked.
    Better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.

  5. #80
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    WRONG please do not post inaccurate or untrue statements. The whole post is insulting No law anywhere requires you stand by and do nothing while a human being is being beaten to death. Every single single state in the Union permits the use of lethal force in the defense of self and others from grievous injury or death. In my state lethal force extends to the defense of property. If I am wrong, prove it, post the law, not an uninformed opinion. This is a fact based board

    Regarding tough guys or wanna be. It is not about being a hero or tough guy it is about standing up and doing the right thing, about not being a spineless coward. Even if it was illegal I would rather do the time than live with the memory of allowing some old helpless guy being beaten to death. If selfish self centered fear is my guiding force than I have lost and the evil has won. NOT gonna happen. It is not about wanna-bees and tough guys. I have been there done that. I do not live in shame. I have the silver dollar sized hole in my skull and other scars that say I stand up when called to do so
    I'm just going to ignore the 'spineless coward' and 'selfish fear' comments, and remind you that, in MN, we have a little something called 'duty to retreat'. We are also required to be an unwilling participant in the situation, in order for the use of lethal force to be justified.

    If I came upon this situation, all I could legally do would be to call 911 and be a good witness; if I so much as drew down on the dirtbags, I would go to jail. And I'm not much good to my 15 month old son if I'm destitute and rotting in jail, now, am I.

    Some of you people live in states where you're legally allowed to intervene in these kinds of situations. Minnesota is not one of them.
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  6. #81
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    in MN, we have a little something called 'duty to retreat'. We are also required to be an unwilling participant in the situation, in order for the use of lethal force to be justified.

    If I came upon this situation, all I could legally do would be to call 911 and be a good witness; if I so much as drew down on the dirtbags, I would go to jail. And I'm not much good to my 15 month old son if I'm destitute and rotting in jail, now, am I.

    Some of you people live in states where you're legally allowed to intervene in these kinds of situations. Minnesota is not one of them.
    Can you post the law or a link to the law. To the statue that allows the use of Lethal Force and Justified Homicide? I get that we do not use any more force than is necessary to stop harm to ourselves or others, but how can any state require that its citizens to stand by and allow a old disabled guy get beaten to death. That is just insane,
    I also get the part about being an unwilling participant and that is what I would be if that scenario was thrust on me. It is not like I ever woke up intending to find 40 to 50 thugs beating an old man to death. The fact that it happened in our presence makes us a participant regardless if we choose to act or not.
    Nor have I at any time advocated drawing down and blasting away or even drawing my weapon much as I may want to. There is just no way I can see myself not acting in the disabled guys defense, legal or not. Than if the dirt bags wanted to be a threat to me or the other guy I would do what was needed to defend us both.
    How I feel about this is not directed at you or anyone it is about what I believe for me. I have to ask myself how is any one who would allow that to happen in their presence unchallenged any different than the dirt-bags doing the beating?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  7. #82
    Member Array gwillys's Avatar
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    to promote ammo conservation, always drop the biggest one first.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    If something like this happened in MN, and I tried to intervene with my gun, it'd get me a trip to the crowbar motel. There would be nothing at all that I could do.
    You need to change your signiture line. You do fear evil. That law is evil and you fear it enough that you would watch another human being die.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  9. #84
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    Come on now, guys. We all have our paths in life. We all have our fears. And we all have different hot buttons that cause us to react from the gut.

    Just because one person decides "X" and another decides "Y", doesn't necessarily mean X is right and Y is wrong, or Y is right and X is wrong.

    Yes, there are some situations where almost all of us would say Wrong!
    But we all see this life differently, and we all have different priorities.

    I would hate to watch someone be beat to death. Horrible!

    Also horrible would be me going to jail, and my kids having no mother to take care of them.

    Don't be so hasty in your judgments.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  10. #85
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    You need to change your signiture line. You do fear evil. That law is evil and you fear it enough that you would watch another human being die.
    Not exactly. It'd be more accurate to say that I love my family enough to avoid getting tossed into jail and/or bankrupted over something like this. My gun is for the defense of myself and of my family. The victim here made the choice not to be armed. That's all there is to it.

    Besides, how would you know what the situation actually was? How would you feel if you defended the stomping victim by shooting 3 or 4 of the mob, and while you were sitting in jail, you learned that they had chased down the guy on the bicycle after he had raped and murdered the mother and sister of one of the people you just shot? Now what?
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  11. #86
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    Not exactly. It'd be more accurate to say that I love my family enough to avoid getting tossed into jail and/or bankrupted over something like this. My gun is for the defense of myself and of my family. The victim here made the choice not to be armed. That's all there is to it.

    Besides, how would you know what the situation actually was? How would you feel if you defended the stomping victim by shooting 3 or 4 of the mob, and while you were sitting in jail, you learned that they had chased down the guy on the bicycle after he had raped and murdered the mother and sister of one of the people you just shot? Now what?
    If you chase down a person who has commited a crime and proceed to stomp the snot out of him, you are breaking the law in just about any state. If they caught him in the act of the rape and were stopping him that is one thing. But in this case it would have been well after the fact in order for him to get dressed and start off on his bicycle.

    In Texas regardless of what the conditions are before this type of assualt, or whether or not the guy being beaten had actually commited a rape, you are still justified in using deadly force against the attackers.

    Whether the victim is a bad person or not doesn't change the legality of the situation. The victim in this case clearly was not a bad person, but simply a victim of a bunch of punks.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #87
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbqgrill
    I did not realize that was your point, I missed that detail; anyway, that is incredible, does the law in MN really prevent an individual from using force to protect the life of another?

    This whole thread got off line...... Let's all remember back to CCW training, if you are not directly threatened you have no right to use force. As soon as you draw on the pack of little balls of hate (for bbqgrill) you now have brought the threat attention to you and because you have caused yourself to be put in that situation as soon as you pull the trigger and "take out the lead guy" as some of you "swear" you'll do (which i still don't believe half of you, the internet is a great place to talk up your ego on what you MIGHT do), you have now committed murder and you are no better than them.


    tough guys to take on a group of 50 people....... quit kidding yourselves
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    In Michigan, you have the right to use any force up to and including deadly force against any one that you know or believe is or is about to do grate bodily harm to yourself or anyone else.

    If you decide to involve yourself in the defense of another, you assume their position as to liability.

    You do not have a duty to retreat.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    The victim here made the choice not to be armed.
    The victim through no fault of his own is prohibited carrying a firearm. Rightly so I do not want mental defectives packing. Why try to blame the victim? There is nothing to indicate he was anything but helpless old man.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilraen View Post
    Just because one person decides "X" and another decides "Y", doesn't necessarily mean X is right and Y is wrong, or Y is right and X is wrong.
    I think just the opposite. That is part of the moral breakdown of this society. Every one running around thinking there is no right or wrong. No black and white. That there are all these grey areas of morality and conduct. That is wrong as an example here are four, no twelve absolutes
    It is NOT OK to ever molest or abuse a child!!
    It is NOT OK to ever molest or abuse a woman!!
    It is NOT OK to ever molest or abuse the elderly!!
    It is NOT OK to ever molest or abuse the disabled and helpless!!
    To do nothing and allow any of those to occur in your presence is no different than being the abuser. No different than being the child molester, who is doing the abuse. To be clear if anyone ever lets a child be molested in their presence, they are a child molester and should be dealt with accordingly.

    I get that some feel that they would end up in jail for doing the right thing. No one has yet been able to post the law that says that. So I have my doubts. Even if there was such a law I do not see a jury of my peers convicting me for doing the right thing. Still lots of people end up in jail and prison for doing the right thing. That is still no reason to not do what is right. Lots of our young men & women our children are dying standing up for what is right. Many of them will never even be able to see their four month old baby. Tell them jail is to high a price to pay for doing the right thing. Life is not always fair.

    We are all real big on our rights our inalienable God given Rights or natural Rights, depending on your beliefs. There are also inalienable human responsibilities and obligations. They come before our rights. Nothing, absolutely nothing is free. Yes we have a right to defend and protect ourselves. We also have an obligation to defend and protect those that can not protect themselves. It is not always about just us. It is always about justice, what is right and moral.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    I'm just going to ignore the 'spineless coward' and 'selfish fear' comments, and remind you that, in MN, we have a little something called 'duty to retreat'. We are also required to be an unwilling participant in the situation, in order for the use of lethal force to be justified.

    If I came upon this situation, all I could legally do would be to call 911 and be a good witness; if I so much as drew down on the dirtbags, I would go to jail. And I'm not much good to my 15 month old son if I'm destitute and rotting in jail, now, am I.

    Some of you people live in states where you're legally allowed to intervene in these kinds of situations. Minnesota is not one of them.
    You might want to check on that...

    2008 Minnesota Statutes


    609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.

    The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.

  15. #90
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    40-50 teens!? That's platoon strength!

    When I'm able to carry I'll have 13 in the gun and 13 in an extra mag. Even if I carried an extra mag it wouldn't be enough. And you can't miss...

    Saying that, I have no idea how I'd react to something like that. That's insane...I've gone through 20 different scenarios in my head, and there has to be a million more. I would not want to run into that...
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

    "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it." - Thucydides

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