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40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious

9K views 129 replies 63 participants last post by  LongRider 
#1 ·
40-50 Kalamazoo teens beat cyclist unconscious | lansingstatejournal.com | Lansing State Journal

KALAMAZOO - Kalamazoo police say about 40 to 50 young males attacked a 50-year-old man riding a bicycle and beat him unconscious.

Police say the attack happened about 6:45 p.m. Tuesday. Witnesses say the attackers appeared to be teenagers.

The witnesses tell investigators some of the group knocked the man off his bike and began beating him. Police say he was hit in the head with a bottle and then kicked and punched as he lay in the street.

His bike was stolen but later recovered.

Police said Tuesday night they didn't yet have any suspects. They said the victim remained unconscious at Bronson Hospital.


What would you do if you saw this happening?
 
#39 ·
I ride bikes....a lot. Probably my favorite thing to do in my spare time ever since I cruised my block on my Big Wheel.

It is a sickness, for which there is no cure.

It remains the ONLY time that I somtimes do not carry. It's just plain tough to do. Especially when in my case.
If I'm riding around town or on relatively tame trails i can get away with carrying the little Kel-Tec .380 in a belly band. But, anything other than that is nearly always out of the question. Usually have a knife in my pocket, but still.

I feel kinda vulnerable riding around anymore.

add to the fact that my bike SCREAMS $$$$$$ and there is nothing I can do about it.:tumbleweed:
 
#40 ·
Sounds like they picked a weak victim which was known to them and unlikely to offer any resistance. This is just like beating up homeless people. Just some senseless stupid violence.

Now if I would end up in that situation: I hope I would be on a fast bike. You can't win. If you open fire: Then it was you who shot an unarmed teen without being provoked (yes... he got 40-50 witnesses that it was all you fault). If you don't shoot (and can't escape): Now you will not only get beaten up, but they will also get your gun.

On the other hand, I would expect them to disperse as soon as they hear a shot.
 
#42 ·
40-50...something just doesn't add up...to take on one ole dude on a bike???

1) What was 40-50 doing at the time before...seems like a large crowd of teens?

2) Guy on bike rides by and they pounce??

Waiting to here the rest of the story...as for me, if I fear mine or my family's life is in danger, I don't care how many there are, I will take as many as I can down with me.

Rick
 
#44 ·
Rick, That is the rest of the story......

The guy is mentally challenged, I unfortunatley live in downtown kalamazoo and normally the kids walk around in groups of 4 to 8 kids. But when two groups meet up or some fight happens somewhere, they are like cockroaches. They start coming from everywhere.

The victim regularly rides his bike in the area and last week it was 60 degrees so he took a ride and the little balls of hate were out after being kept inside all winter. They wanted to prove a point and they knew he wouldn't fight back because he was mentally unable to.

Last summer 2 groups met up outside of my house and started to yell at each other I first called the cops then went out and told them to leave my lawn. So they did after lighting off a few swear words, but they went across the street where two pre teen girls proceeded to fight another girl for god knows what.
 
#43 ·
Im with alot of people here. Move tactically, Make sure all shots are on target. Im sure the majority will scatter if any are armed and they fire back you should have enough to take down those who fight back. Use what you have. If your in a car plow through the crowd then get out and open fire.

If they try to disarm me they will beat me with an empty gun that I promise.
 
#45 ·
You guys all sound tough and though your logic is great............


YOUR GETTING ATTACKED BY 40-50 PEOPLE!

quit playing the "what if" games and realize that you would have no chance of moving tactically, and making sure all shots are on target. PLEASE...... that sounds so lame
 
#51 ·
That's just a stupid law!!!!!
You have to watch a man being beaten to death:mad:
 
#52 ·
A group of 40 people are no longer under their own control like it was said before it is a pack. Like a pack of dogs,wolves. The pack has to be put down. Aim for the lead guy and watch the other hightail it out of there. There is no jury that could convict somebody for coming to the aid of another person who is being stomped and beaten half to death.
 
#58 ·
The scenario was; what would you do if you came upon the scene described in the OP. Michigan law may be different, but in Texas it is okay to use deadly force to protect a third party, you are not required to help, but it is within the law.

If I were to observe this scene I think first reporting it 911 then driving closer in my car but making sure that I wasn't boxed in. There would be a lot of rubberneckers that were watching the carnage and they all might scatter when they saw a witness. If some of the party approaches in a threatening manner the handgun would be drawn to the ready but not yet displayed. If yelling and informing that 911 has been called does no good and they continue approaching, disparity of numbers allows you to display your weapon. At this point they will likely scatter and hopefully leave the victim alone. But you never know. If it is a gang and you are on their turf, it could be more of a challenge. Gangs can be recognized if they are wearing colors (either red or blue bandannas or shirts, or matching jackets).

If I was on foot, I would probably only approach and engage if I had some avenue of escape. I would not be able to outrun them if my gun jammed or I ran out of ammo.

Since I am not in law enforcement it is not my job to enforce the laws but I want to help an obvious victim when I can, but my primary reason for carrying is to protect myself and family.
 
#61 ·
The scenario was; what would you do if you came upon the scene described in the OP. Michigan law may be different, but in Texas it is okay to use deadly force to protect a third party, you are not required to help, but it is within the law.
In Mississippi also, I would help my neighbor and pray for a fast response time! You won't have much time to decide what to do if you find yourself in this situation.


That's what I love about this forum.Being able to mentally go over how you would react.

Sometimes I find it hard to understand when people say I'm not LEO...it's not my job. So they have nothing to fear if budget cuts puts only 2 deputies in your county.
I think defending a life is more then just a job.

How long would you just sit there and watch a stranger get kicked in the head?
30 sec...1 min....what's the average response time?

There's a whole bunch of things going on right now that I don't understand...maybe it's just me..YMMV
 
#68 ·
Everyone has to remember that these are a bunch of punk kids not trained soldiers. They have no idea if you have 7+1 in the gun or a rocket launcher. They see a gun and they are out of there. They are not fighting for anything like freedom or country. They are mob mentality punks being punks. They will not keep fighting if death is a possible outcome. They have nothing to fight for. Seems like they aren't even looking for money in this scenerio.

My last post I answered as if I was the one being attacked. I misunderstood and was off track.

If I came across a crowd like that I would call 911 then start yelling 5-0..POLICE! COPS are coming!! Iif they started walking toward me I would have to draw. If they started running toward me I would have to draw and shoot. Between the threat of the cops coming and a gun pointed at them ready to defend myself they are not sticking around.
 
#69 ·
The most amazing thing about all of this is that it is not even shocking. More immoral SOB running amok. Being a tad past 50 this story makes me want to take up bike riding in Kalamazoo. This kind of stuff is just plain sick other than the victim it does not appear that any humans were involved
 
#71 ·
Easy call for me... the alphas are easy to spot. Pick a big alpha, aim carefully, and turn his head into hamburger and bone splinters.

I guarantee 3 solid seconds of stunned silence. You say, "Who's next...?"

They won't do the "50 versus your potential ammunition quantity" math... they will evaporate. If there is indecision, pick another large alpha, and repeat. You won't fire more than 2 or 3 rounds in this scenario if the mob takes you seriously...

What is that signature line I see here all the time...? "Evil exists only when good men do nothing..."



Something like that...
 
#72 ·
Well, there is something to be said for tenacity and surprise. It would all depend on the crowd itself. If it looked to me like a bunch of middle class highschool kids then you guys are right you could win. If it was a little tougher crowd you're dead. It only takes one guy to shoot you in the back.
 
#75 ·
Good Lord. If ever there was an example of why to carry extra ammo.....

I'd have to shoot a few of them and hope the rest would scatter. I don't think I could stand by and watch a group like that try to beat a man to death.
 
#78 ·
Proper positioning, warning that you have called the police and try to get as many as possible to run away. If anyone comes at me or is still going at it, then I would do what I had to do. Like it's been said, most of these losers are just gawking, I definitely would not open fire on a bunch of gawkers. I can't imagine many on this forum would stand by and do absolutely nothing, regardless of the law's finer details!
 
#84 ·
Come on now, guys. We all have our paths in life. We all have our fears. And we all have different hot buttons that cause us to react from the gut.

Just because one person decides "X" and another decides "Y", doesn't necessarily mean X is right and Y is wrong, or Y is right and X is wrong.

Yes, there are some situations where almost all of us would say Wrong!
But we all see this life differently, and we all have different priorities.

I would hate to watch someone be beat to death. Horrible!

Also horrible would be me going to jail, and my kids having no mother to take care of them.

Don't be so hasty in your judgments.
 
#87 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqgrill
I did not realize that was your point, I missed that detail; anyway, that is incredible, does the law in MN really prevent an individual from using force to protect the life of another?

This whole thread got off line...... Let's all remember back to CCW training, if you are not directly threatened you have no right to use force. As soon as you draw on the pack of little balls of hate (for bbqgrill) you now have brought the threat attention to you and because you have caused yourself to be put in that situation as soon as you pull the trigger and "take out the lead guy" as some of you "swear" you'll do (which i still don't believe half of you, the internet is a great place to talk up your ego on what you MIGHT do), you have now committed murder and you are no better than them.


tough guys to take on a group of 50 people....... quit kidding yourselves
__________________
"The great object is, that every man be armed.... Every one who is able may have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

In Michigan, you have the right to use any force up to and including deadly force against any one that you know or believe is or is about to do grate bodily harm to yourself or anyone else.

If you decide to involve yourself in the defense of another, you assume their position as to liability.

You do not have a duty to retreat.
 
#91 ·
This whole thread got off line...... Let's all remember back to CCW training, if you are not directly threatened you have no right to use force. As soon as you draw on the pack of little balls of hate (for bbqgrill) you now have brought the threat attention to you and because you have caused yourself to be put in that situation as soon as you pull the trigger and "take out the lead guy" as some of you "swear" you'll do (which i still don't believe half of you, the internet is a great place to talk up your ego on what you MIGHT do), you have now committed murder and you are no better than them.
I am glad I don't live in your state or didn't receive the instruction you did, because both of those bold area are WRONG.

Even before I started to carry, I would have done something in this case, and have stepped in when a guy was getting the snot beat out of him by one guy with about a half dozen of his buddies egging him on. They were all high school aged kids, but it only took some yelling at them and me to get between the two for everyone to get into their cars and leave. The kid getting the snot kicked out of him was able to head into his place of employment without any further damage to himself.

I would certainly step up if it was a PWD getting the snot kicked out of them, regardless of if I was carrying.
 
#90 ·
40-50 teens!? That's platoon strength!

When I'm able to carry I'll have 13 in the gun and 13 in an extra mag. Even if I carried an extra mag it wouldn't be enough. And you can't miss...

Saying that, I have no idea how I'd react to something like that. That's insane...I've gone through 20 different scenarios in my head, and there has to be a million more. I would not want to run into that...
 
#92 ·
Here's the Arizona law:

According to ARS (Arizona Revised Statutes) §13-406, "A person is justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another to protect a third person if:

1. Under the circumstances as a reasonable person would believe them to be, such person would be justified under section 13-404 or 13-405 in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force to protect himself against the unlawful physical force or deadly physical force a reasonable person would believe is threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

2. A reasonable person would believe that such person's intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person."
 
#95 ·
Great....so you found 609.065.

Now tell me how you're going to wade into a group of 40-50 people with guns blazing, and then somehow convince a grand jury that you were an unwilling participant in that situation? I wish you luck, my friend....and I hope you don't have a family that depends on you, and on your income.
 
#96 ·
Quote:
609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE

The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.



Hey I don't want to wade into MN law or the virtues of getting involved or not getting involved in the defense of a stranger but I think the MN law is very similar to Delaware's law. So in this situation if you come to the aid of the cyclist with deadly force you are not in violation because the cyclist is in a situation where he could legally defend nimself with the use deadly force. Simply you as the Good Samaritan are not causing the attack on the cyclist so you are harmless in the cause for the use of deadly force in self defense or in this case the defense of another. Or, if you prefer the unwilling participant is the cyclist, if you defend the cyclist you are harmless because you did not initiate the attack on the cyclist. All assuming you want to risk the tribulations otherwise associated with this senario.

Regards,
 
#97 ·
:tired:

I think everyone need to take a moment and count to ten.

Packin' you we're claiming that MN did not allow lethal force in defense of another, that apparently isn't the case as the above quoted portion of the law clear states the opposite. Either post some relevant laws backing your position or just leave it alone.

To everyone else, remember: Attack the argument, not the person. Even if you don't intend to be insulting it can sometimes be misconstrued and taken as an insult.
 
#99 ·
+1 Well said as always.
 
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