Good Massad Ayoob article

Good Massad Ayoob article

This is a discussion on Good Massad Ayoob article within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just was reading an article in American Ammunition magazine..at least thats what I thought it said..just browsing the gun mags in my spare time. ...

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Thread: Good Massad Ayoob article

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array ErikGr7's Avatar
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    Good Massad Ayoob article

    I just was reading an article in American Ammunition magazine..at least thats what I thought it said..just browsing the gun mags in my spare time.

    They had an article by Massad Ayoob, on self defense shootings. I won't go through all the details but, he basically said that Leo and military personal get lots of info regarding laws on self defense and guns but, the common CHL holder is on their own to learn the laws.

    He states most people think they are ok in certain scenarios such as a home invasion with armed robbers..you defended yourself and thats..that right? wrong..

    He said even in the most justifiable cases...its still going to be heck to go through both emotionally and in court. He also mentioned a case where an officer had to shot the BG 17 times with a 9mm as he wouldn't go down..and the jury played it as if he was a blood thristy killer since he shot the BG so many times. Massad recommend that in such a shooting its better to go with a larger caliber and use the least amount of bullets to stop the BG.

    I know in general we already know this. Just a good wake up call...think twice before you shoot...and think about whats in the background.


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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Most of the officers I've spoken with about gun laws and SD don't have a clue.

    Larger calibers don't always require fewer shots.
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    Hmmm, that is interesting. The curious thing that caught my attention was, "Massad recommends that in such a shooting its better to go with a larger caliber and use the least amount of bullets to stop the BG." Now that's quite a statement.

    It first suggests that we would know when we're gonna be in "...such a shooting situation..." and second that a larger caliber would be more effective requiring less shots. I'd love to see the support for that!

    Seeing as I'm carrying a G21 with 14 rounds of .45 ACP, I don't have a problem with carrying bigger bullets, but I have yet to see a convincing study that shows it takes two (or whatever number) 9mms to do the work of one .45ACP. I've heard lots of claims about that, but never any documented work.

    But, and back to the point, yes it is a good wake up call.
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    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikGr7 View Post
    He said even in the most justifiable cases...its still going to be heck to go through both emotionally and in court. He also mentioned a case where an officer had to shot the BG 17 times with a 9mm as he wouldn't go down..and the jury played it as if he was a blood thristy killer since he shot the BG so many times. Massad recommend that in such a shooting its better to go with a larger caliber and use the least amount of bullets to stop the BG.

    I know in general we already know this. Just a good wake up call...think twice before you shoot...and think about whats in the background.
    Yeah, there was a great article in the new American Rifleman about why cops are now emptying their magazines. Cops really are the unsung hereos in America who are put in the crosshairs by media circuses, families and courts.

    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duisburg View Post
    Yeah, there was a great article in the new American Rifleman about why cops are now emptying their magazines. Cops really are the unsung hereos in America who are put in the crosshairs by media circuses, families and courts.

    Ooooo, I can't wait to read that!
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    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    For me, it all comes down to surviving. BGs in the house with guns does not seem like a very survivable situation if one's reaction is to just roll over and offer their throat to the wolves... I'd rather go down fighting back. I understand that there will be legal and moral repercussions if I have to use deadly force to stop an attack on me or my family... but at least I'll be alive to suffer through the repercussions, instead of being dead and gone and just another statistic.
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    Senior Member Array community's Avatar
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    is there a link to download the article?
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    Senior Member Array ErikGr7's Avatar
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    I am searching online to see if its posted somewhere. I read it this morning in a gun magazine.

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    CDH
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    BS like Ayoob repeats is why we have more and more states with Castle Doctrine laws.

    Reasonable people have come to realize that the courts play too freely with citizens who have to defend themselves against predators, so the Castle Doctrine is what puts things back right.

    A predator is a predator whether he's been shot once or 50 times.
    What the Castle Doctrine does is to put the emphasis back on who the predator is and why he was shot, not who shot him and how many times.

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    Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6.

    I think it goes something like that.
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    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    I look at it this way:

    If they fall faster than I can empty my magazine, so be it. I'll stop shooting then.

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    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Hesitation can get you killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwhall57 View Post
    For me, it all comes down to surviving. BGs in the house with guns does not seem like a very survivable situation if one's reaction is to just roll over and offer their throat to the wolves... I'd rather go down fighting back. I understand that there will be legal and moral repercussions if I have to use deadly force to stop an attack on me or my family... but at least I'll be alive to suffer through the repercussions, instead of being dead and gone and just another statistic.
    Hell yea, if the BG kicks in the door and you feel you are in mortal danger, and the BG is built like he plays football and is hyped on on drugs and buzzed... then I would think it's the priority of the defender to LIVE ANOTHER DAY (EVEN if it took many shots) where as the thoughts about court etc should be secondary... I would think survival is more important... unless you rather take a chance and HOPE the attack stops.

    One CCW permit holder had something similar happen... he was the victim of a mall shooting where the active shooter/perp was a TEENAGER who was KILLING people, and guess that he did, he had the gunman in his sights BUT DID NOT open fire... saddly when the gunman saw him he did not SHARE his sentiments and paralized him with a shoot from a high powered rifle! His hesitation only aided the killer... you think the cops hesitated?

    I rather would have had my health or life intact rather than contemplate how a court would think of the size of the gun, how much times I had to shoot, the type of bullets used etc...
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    New Member Array rkwallace's Avatar
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    Tangle

    There has been work done verifying "wound volume" in many different handgun calibers and loads. The original ballistics work, performed by the FBI in the 90's, has been mathematically mapped by Zak Smith whose work, shown in a fairly straightforward document, can be found here: Interpretation of FBI gelatin tests
    Also, as a reaction to CDH, Castle Law doesn't apply everywhere, yet, and what Ayoob "said" wasn't a direct quote on this thread, it was a summarization. Even so, if he said exactly those words it is a valid point, though not necessarily one that is running through your mind when faced with BG #1. However, if juries are finding guilty at a higher rate individuals who fire their handgun multiple times into a target versus those who discharge two or three rounds then the logic is solid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwallace View Post
    Tangle

    There has been work done verifying "wound volume" in many different handgun calibers and loads. The original ballistics work, performed by the FBI in the 90's, has been mathematically mapped by Zak Smith whose work, shown in a fairly straightforward document, can be found here: ...
    I think I've seen that and there was another high profile study about math, modelling, bullets, etc.

    But from what I've seen since, there is little street confirmation. I know an emergency response guy that is a gun guy and has a keen interest in bullet wounds. Over the years he has had an opportunity to see hundreds of gunshot wounds and the analysis of them. He tells me that it's impossible to determine what caliber made the wound unless the bullet, or even better, the gun is found that was used in the shooting. After all that, he carries a 9mm - Glock 19 to be exact.

    One of the problems with mathmatical models is obtaining accurate data from actual street shootings to obtain statistical trends. There are just so many variables, angle of shot, placement, number of shots fired, incapacitation time, human response to being shot, etc. Those things simply don't lend themselves well to mathmatical models and predictive analysis.

    I have an entire book at home dedicated to the discussion and analysis of bullet wounds and bullet effectiveness. The bottom line is, in a given gunfight we simply don't know how the bullets are going to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Most of the officers I've spoken with about gun laws and SD don't have a clue.

    Larger calibers don't always require fewer shots.
    Unless you're talking about larger than a .22.
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