This is a discussion on Golf clubs attack within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Does not sound to me like you were ever in a situation where you could not retreat. I do not see how you could ever ...
Does not sound to me like you were ever in a situation where you could not retreat. I do not see how you could ever have been justified in drawing a gun. I would have had management involved, whether it was asking for a refund or to throw the kids out.
Not saying it's not a viable option but, no duty to retreat in Utah. If I think that to protect my family it is better to draw than to retreat, that's what is going to happen. I'm getting between the golf club and my family, telling them to back up, and doing what I have to do to protect them. If that means drawing my gun...... let's see how big their eyes get.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”.... Albert Einstein
And BTW, I carry legally and do think of these situations.
These kinds of situations remind me of poker strategy....it all depends.
Assault by multiple teen males armed with golf clubs? Damned right you're able to defend against such an attack. A year or two on the books doesn't make much difference when swingin' a club. Multiple teens, with a child to protect? Such a disparity of force is clear, to me.
Though, if faced with unruly teens prepared to take it as far as they did, I would almost certainly leave. Likely, if the staff failed to immediately eject the people, I'd have called the police to report threatening armed behavior by multiple teens. Either way, it's certainly not worth having my child around, to risk the harm these teens seemed prepared to cause.
Just because you don't have a legal duty to retreat doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. Use your head first and your weapon as a LAST resort.
Also, You shouldn't draw to de-escalate. If I point that .45 at you, I have every intent to stop you.
I'll give you a real world example.
I live in a rural area in the house I grew up in. It's an older neighborhood and I know all my neighbors. One night about 10:30 I hear this commotion outside in front of my house. I look out and there are two cars (going in the same direction) parked in front of my house blocking both lanes of the rural road. This guy is just beating the crap out of this female. He is in a TOTAL rage. I reach around the door while yelling to my wife "Dial 911".
While walking across the yard I yell out quite loudly as I have a very commanding voice "What the $$$$ do you think you are doing"? Well the third time I yelled out, the guy finally heard me.
He started towards me and stepped onto my property. I at no time prior to that let him see the gun I was holding down to my side behind my right leg but as soon as he stepped onto my property and started yelling at me I immediately raised my pistol and said "YOU DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT". Well he kept coming so I jacked a round in the chamber and once again in a loud commanding voice said "I SAID, YOU DON'T WANT THINK ABOUT THAT".
The guy was still in a rage and kept coming. That's when I took a nice weave stance and yelled one more time. "ONE MORE STEP AND YOU DIE WHERE THE $$$$ YOU FALL".
That stopped him dead in his tracks. My wife in the meantime was yelling from the front porch. "Son he will shoot you" at the top of her lungs. He kept yelling but he never stepped forward. I was sure glad he didn't because I NEVER want to have to kill someone even in self defense.
So there is a prime, real world situation that shows just because you have to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot.
I was totally prepared and would not have hesitated to shoot this guy but I'm glad I didn't have to.
Anyway come to find out he had just gotten out of prison where he spent 2 years for shooting into a house where he hit someone and paralyzed them. He was also in violation of his parole as he was out after dark.
The bad thing is that one of my neighbors commented to my daughter that I should never get involved in something like that. I wonder if they would feel differently if it was their grand daughter getting the crap beat out of her?
By the way in my area it takes law enforcement anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours to respond to something like this. There are just too few officers and too big of an area of responsibility to have a quicker response time. This girl didn't have that much time the way he was beating her.
I'd have gone to the manager and asked for a refund or rain check, and then left with an enduring life lesson to explain to my son about knowing when to hold'em, knowing when to fold'em, knowing when to walk away...and recognizing when to run.
There is no way I'm going to get maimed for life, or have my harddrive scrambled if not get myself killed on a mini-golf course, by teenagers. Muchless in front of my child. Not gunna happen.
Further I am not going to draw down, and if I in my own brain decide to draw then very likely somebody is going to leave on a stretcher and the other in cuffs, on folk at a mini-golf facility. Doubly so not teenagers acting like well, teenagers. And especially not in front of my child who will never ever forget what he herd and saw, toward dad.
Even if I hesitated and did not fire, imagine the image burned into my boy and everyone elses brain of me, 'Dad', applying real to them picture of lethal force 'threat' against some socially inappropriate teens...over a few curse words spouted off.
Draw that mental picture, or simply look to my avatar.
I won't even mention the horrible play the media will make of this incident toward me as the adult and thus person who would be expected to be the 'bigger man'. Nor will I mention how such a story would make national news to _hurt_ CCWs as a case of "gun nut" dad shoots kids/teens while at family fun center. You know that is pretty much exactly how the article title would read. With a big pic of me looking scary and some stock photo of a gun amongst a bunch of bullets and crime tape.
No thank you, I like my life as is.
I'm leaving forthwith and would leave the behavioral notification and modification work to the manager, or if necessary the police to sort out.
I'd read about it all in my local paper the next day and would share that news report with my son to which he and I both would have a long lasting meaningful memory toward the many learned lessons of life and survival.
"Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Jeff Cooper
Well said, Janq.
You cover management notification, involvement, and socializing your son not to suffer fools.
Other excellent comments in this fine thread.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
"I came up to them politely and told them to watch the language, childrens are around, no need to use kind of bad language."
In my opinion, if you had a weapon and had shot one of these kids...we wouldn't hear from you for a long time.
1. As long as the kids were cussing and acting up, but in no way acted in a threatening manner to you or your son, you had absolutely no right to pull a weapon on them if you were armed.
2. When you approached them and asked them to stop cussing, (I totally agree with your logic) in a court of law you could be seen as the aggressor at that point.
3. If when you felt threatened your 1st response should have been to call the police and report these kids. Tennessee like Texas is a no retreat state, but in this case it seems you had every opportunity to walk away. It's not like they chased you down and pinned you in a corner.
Agreed OV on #2.
By perception and as how the story would be told, the aggressor would be dad who got confrontational with the teens pouring water on a grease fire causing it to flare up.
Whilst carrying one should and is morally if not legally bound to practice avoidance and restraint. Even if it is how you would normally act/react if not carrying a weapon.
Ruining ones family life and own future over some insolent teens is not worth the trouble. If you're gonna get locked up or your picture in the paper then make it for something very much worthwhile.
With witnesses around it was probably more posturing then anything else. Best to back off and if they are going to actually continue the threat then they will press on. However, if they make any threatening move toward me at this point I would have considered it an assualt with a deadly weapon.
S&W 442, Bersa 380, S&W 9mm M&P, Springfield XD40c
Member: NRA, USCCA