Golf clubs attack

[50calshooter]

In Kentucky it goes like this: You can use deadly force to stop an assailant if you are afraid for your life or the life of someone else. They advise against it for the life of someone else unless it's a loved one.

If a Jr High kid raises a club to me, I might just put him in a headlock and pull his cell phone out and call mom and dad.

If a high school aged kid makes me afraid for my life...boom.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[itowbigtruck]

Doing that is very possibly going to get you arrested for brandishing. You have to remember, your weapon is for self defense, not "scaring" someone into leaving you alone.

+1 This is what I meant in the earlier post, Just phrased better than me. Thhank you

[ccw9mm]

Even if I hesitated and did not fire, imagine the image burned into my boy and everyone elses brain of me, 'Dad', applying real to them picture of lethal force 'threat' against some socially inappropriate teens...over a few curse words spouted off.

I don't think anyone's promoting the use of lethal force to "defend" against cursing or "teen behavior." That's not defense; that's aggravated assault.

The point most folks are making about the use of deadly force comes at the point where the clubs are being used by attackers in an actual aggressive attack. At that point, teens or not, it's absolutely legally allowable to defend oneself, one's child.

[Janq]

But that's not what happened CCW9.
Though if it had then defense of self and son thereafter would be a no brainer, and thus no need to inquire about as much per this thread.

- Janq

[MadMac]

When my kids were young, I had a couple similar situations - albeit not with a golf club involved. The bottom line for me is that it's just not worth it to confront little, well, jerks, like this. Either appealing to them or directing them to stop using foul language is often perceived as an affront, and they don't want to back down - especially in front of a buddy or friends. They don't want to appear as weak as they really are.

The older I get, the more I believe in the "Let it go, Louie," philosophy. The dorks were management's problem and possibly the police. Not yours.

I live in NC,and our regional "big city" paper was one of the vehicles that condemned the Duke Lacrosse "rapists", and whipped the community into a frenzy with their lousy fact-less reporting.

This same paper would have run an article of you on Page 1 (above the fold) with your huge mugshot splayed across the upper-left side of the page. On the bottom of the page would be prom pictures of the perps or ones with them hugging their moms on Mother's Day, complete with a big red heart border. The article would say a vigilante gun nut with his CHP went off on a couple feckless yoots who may have muttered the words , "Aw, poop..." after missing an easy putt at the family fun center. They'd say you have just got your permit, and would find a video store clerk who claims you liked watching Charles Bronson movies at home.

They would also have an editorial on the OpEd pages demanding repeal of all state and national CHP permits (except for politicians, celebrities, and people like the publisher and editor).

Dude, your life would be sooooo over. Even if they eventually cleared you. If it's possible to walk away from a situation, you need to walk away.

[yzcrasher]

The original poster is in Texas. No duty to retreat there when a person is in a place they have a legal right to be.

In texas you also can NOT start a "situation". Technically by going to the kids to "talk to them" started the fight. That's NOT SD. No duty to retreat in texas, but also NOT legal to start a situation.

[Tigrebleau]

Don't understand why LE wasn't called as soon as these creeps-in-training started becoming a public nuisance. I'm put in mind of a situation reported elsewhere on this forum some time ago where an aggressor was put down and was later characterised in the media as getting his life together by planning to finish his GED and trying to get a job so he could marry his girlfriend and mother of his son. So sad. The media failed to properly identify him as an unemployed dropout who fathered a child out of wedlock who was commiting a crime when stopped.

[ccw9mm]

But that's not what happened CCW9.

Right. But the question posed was what to do if about to be attacked by golf clubs ... not what to do if in the exact same shoes and outcome (non-attack) known in advance.

Now, what would you do if your armed. Teenagers going to attack you with the golf clubs. Use your weapon ?

[Patches25]

I don't know about anyone else but IMHO you should proof read or something because it was hard to make sense of the typing.

Not trying to be an ass just a suggestion is all

[FireAir7215]

I don't know about anyone else but IMHO you should proof read or something because it was hard to make sense of the typing.

Not trying to be an ass just a suggestion is all

Sorry, I'm bad at typing

**************
Thank you guys for response. First of all, I should not come up to them. Next time, will call police and/or talk to management about this. Yall make some good point.

[yzcrasher]

In my opinion NEVER confront someone in a situation like OP. Naturally if they are beating on someone, the tides change..

[Tom G]

I would try to walk away from it if I could and get the management to call the cops. If my son and I were attacted I wouild have to consider drawing. This should bring things to a screeching halt. If not golf clubs are a deadly weapon. If things escalate there should be other wittnesses sinse the management has already been involved. The best thing you could have done was not to approch the jerks in the first place and go to the management and have them call police.

[Bark'n]

I'd have gone to the manager and asked for a refund or rain check, and then left with an enduring life lesson to explain to my son about knowing when to hold'em, knowing when to fold'em, knowing when to walk away...and recognizing when to run.

There is no way I'm going to get maimed for life, or have my harddrive scrambled if not get myself killed on a mini-golf course, by teenagers. Muchless in front of my child. Not gunna happen.

Further I am not going to draw down, and if I in my own brain decide to draw then very likely somebody is going to leave on a stretcher and the other in cuffs, on folk at a mini-golf facility. Doubly so not teenagers acting like well, teenagers. And especially not in front of my child who will never ever forget what he herd and saw, toward dad.
Even if I hesitated and did not fire, imagine the image burned into my boy and everyone elses brain of me, 'Dad', applying real to them picture of lethal force 'threat' against some socially inappropriate teens...over a few curse words spouted off.
Draw that mental picture, or simply look to my avatar.

I won't even mention the horrible play the media will make of this incident toward me as the adult and thus person who would be expected to be the 'bigger man'. Nor will I mention how such a story would make national news to _hurt_ CCWs as a case of "gun nut" dad shoots kids/teens while at family fun center. You know that is pretty much exactly how the article title would read. With a big pic of me looking scary and some stock photo of a gun amongst a bunch of bullets and crime tape.

No thank you, I like my life as is.
I'm leaving forthwith and would leave the behavioral notification and modification work to the manager, or if necessary the police to sort out.
I'd read about it all in my local paper the next day and would share that news report with my son to which he and I both would have a long lasting meaningful memory toward the many learned lessons of life and survival.

- Janq

"Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Jeff Cooper

Well I had something all lined out to say regarding this situation. Especially about, "I have no duty to retreat" nonsense. And then I read Janq's post. And quite frankly, there's just no better way to put it.
+1 Janq

[Sticks]

And so continues the decline of western civilization, and the entire lack of discipline of children.

Yesterday, My 9 years old son and I went to a place where people playing mini golf. For a while afterwards, we both happens overheard there was couple of teenagers (appox. 14 - 16 yrs old) boys that were roughly playing around with golf clubs ( hitting on the grounds for no reasons, wide swing around, etc)...

By couple I presume you mean 2

...Now and then they were talking out loud and cussing. I got real angry at them because my 9 years old son heard all of those cussing. Took my son away from them to other side of the golfing place. About 15 minutes later, I see couple of employee went up to those teenagers to sort things out ( I think someone made some complain against those teenagers) Seems didnt get it solved and they were still cussing out...

Clearly they do not care who says what about their activities, and management should have thrown them out a that point.

...I came up to them politely and told them to watch the language, childrens are around, no need to use kind of bad language. A boy told me if they could use my nuts and swing it. I told him if their parents are around that I need to talk with your behavior . They were trying to start the problem with me, they had their golf clubs up in the air fixing to attack with me...

I see nothing wrong in what you did, or how that could be interpreted as instigating a confrontation. You did not threaten them, you asked them to stop with the foul language, then requested to speak with their parents (which I might add has been suggested many a time by many a forum member when dealing with unruly kids)

...Finally people who were witnessed came up and report to manager. This guy, the manager told them that hes going to call the police if the teenagers dont leave. Teenagers got bad mouthing to manager and they threw golf clubs over the fence and left.
I am not carry at this time because am waiting on CHL...

I'll get to my take on the situation in a moment.

...Sounds like some punk kids and I doubt they were out to do any real damage. Most still know they will get in deep trouble even as a juvenile.

Ummm...not so much. Juvenile means unless they actually kill someone, it is a sealed record and a clean slate when they turn 18, they can just about do what ever they want and it is mommy and daddy who are responsible for their actions. Slap on the wrist.

Teens are unpredictable. Are they posturing or getting ready to take the plunge into real activities? I am not going to take the risk.

Not sure about your laws, but in CO we have a secondary out that covers all the "You are instigating or escalating the situation by talking to them (which I think is BS - JIMHO)

18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.

1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use of imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

1. The actor has reasonable ground to believe and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
2. The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
3. The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.

3. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a person is not justified in using physical force if:

1. With intent to cause bodily injury or death to another person, he provokes the use of unlawful physical force by that other person; or
2. He is the initial aggressor, except that his use of physical force upon another person under the circumstances is justifiable if he withdraws from-the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or threatens the use of unlawful physical force; or
3. The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

I still have not found the specs on the very last line, it would be a nice contract to keep in ones pocket.

Anyhow, I'd have done the same thing as FireAir7215. When they raised the clubs in an aggressive manner, I would have very loudly as to get as much attention as possible, "Put those clubs down, I do not want any trouble!" while backing away, and most likely preparing to draw.

Now the variables start running every which way. If they continued to advance on me aggressively, I would have yelled "Someone call 911! I said put the clubs down, I do not want any trouble!" then drawn my weapon. I am in no hurry to be involved in a shooting whatsoever, let alone at a family fun center. Nor will I idly stand by and endure that type of behavior. I have just as much right to a peaceful time as the next person. They threatened me, I asked them politely to stop with the foul language.

People letting them get away with this type of behavior and management failing to eject them on the spot is why kids are under the distinct impression that they can get away with anything, and will continue to be a burden on society in one way or another. No discipline.

Tin foil hat and asbestos suit is on. Flame away!

[ccw9mm]

Now the variables start running every which way. If they continued to advance on me aggressively, I would have yelled "Someone call 911! I said put the clubs down, I do not want any trouble!" then drawn my weapon. I am in no hurry to be involved in a shooting whatsoever, let alone at a family fun center. Nor will I idly stand by and endure that type of behavior. I have just as much right to a peaceful time as the next person. They threatened me, I asked them politely to stop with the foul language.

Good point. It's crucial that we be seen to be the victims in such encounters, else there may be many, many witnesses that will (if pushed only a little) claim to have seen something entirely different than what transpired. Without such witnessing of the truth, in such a situation, you're just another foul criminal gunning down our country's youth for no apparent reason. Case closed. Pass, on that.