Church and School shootings
This is a discussion on Church and School shootings within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Today's church shooting has really been bothering me.
I just got done doing a search (Google) and found 14 church shootings and 27 school shootings ...
March 9th, 2009 12:49 AM
Church and School shootings
Today's church shooting has really been bothering me.
I just got done doing a search (Google) and found 14 church shootings and 27 school shootings since 1999. I didn't do a search of synagogues, but I know there have been incidents (the Seattle Jewish Center and an LA Jewish Center, I believe) there as well.
There were a total of 43 murders and 35 wounded at churches.
78 killed and 88 wounded at schools (with the overachieving scumbags at Columbine-15 killed and 23 wounded-and VT-32 killed, 15 wounded-being the major 'battlefields').
(None of the gunmen were included in the above statistics.)
I know I am preaching to the choir (so to speak), but if Victim Disarmament Zones (and that is what schools are) can have this many murders and attempted murders, then nowhere (including churches, malls, homes, fill in the blank of your favorite place where it seems one could be in a safe place) is necessarily safe.
I guess I am more venting than anything else. I know you all understand. Most of the people I see around me probably think we are nutjobs to begin with. To have to think about these kinds of things at church or synagogue just fries their circuitry.
Tomorrow, I get off the 'X.' There will be a Safety Team begun this week. There will be much to figure out, including how to handle denominational authorities and contingency plans for events other than active shooters (heart attack, child abduction, etc.).
I will also push the denominational folks to do something intelligent. I know, that's a stretch, but I will give it a try.
Thanks for your wisdom and experience. Y'all push me to grow and think. I thank you for that.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
March 9th, 2009 12:57 AM
I had a conversation with an acquaintance about today's church shooting. She has no problem with churches employing a paid or volunteer security detail but she still desperately clings to the opinion that "regular people having a gun is just bad."
I tried mentioning the woefully inadequate training of many security "professionals" and how the average citizen can spend a weekend getting better firearms training than you'll find in many police academies, but her logic-proof vest proved invulnerable.
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
March 9th, 2009 01:09 AM
It's simpler than that, even.
Originally Posted by miklcolt45
It's not because such places have proven incidents occur. It's simply because such places are as accessible to one person as the next. Being publicly-accessible spaces means one thing, quite simply: anyone can go there. Wherever you can easily go, so can an armed criminal. And there's the rub. In public spaces, such attendance by criminals cannot be halted, let alone (generally) even detected. All you can really do is to hope to respond quickly and effectively if/when such criminals decide to do damage.
Which is why I'm of the opinion that having all citizens armed to the teeth can be the ultimate deterrent, as it's the only thing that can respond on the instant of an attack, since everyone else "assigned" to the task of protecting us is a phone call away (ie, not present RIGHT NOW). It is that simple.
I wish you luck and success in helping to appeal to the rational, intellectual side of the people who will be hearing your case. The logic is irrefutable. Only emotions and politics can get in the way. It might help to use the analogy of "wolves." When wolves are hounding your flock, you cannot reason with them. Only by protecting the flock and ensuring swift halting of attacks can you minimize the damage done by attacks. Only by helping the wolves physically see the error of their ways can you hope to eliminate the wolves from the herd.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
March 9th, 2009 10:12 AM
Unfortunately, the reaction of all too many people to these kinds of statistics is that we need greater gun control, not less.
I was at our synagogues Purim Festival yesterday. We had all kinds of activities for kids, from rock climbing wall, to bounce houses, etc., and had hundreds of people coming and going throughout the day, many of whom were not members of the synagogue.
I was really concerned about some nut case coming in and did not leave my two grandkids out of my sight. Fortunately, my daughter and son-in-law share my concerns and do not think me paranoid.
But, I think that it is a very sad commentary about what has happened to our society that we have to feel and act this way. Necessary, but sad.
"It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."
J. R. R. Tolkien
March 9th, 2009 10:31 AM
Shameful! Those people doing the shootings should be arrested for violating the gun free zone laws! Seriously, when are the sheep ever going to understand that the only people who are going to obey their gun free zones are the ones who aren't going there to kill some one. There was an exchange between senator Marsh and Senator Cuccinelli, during debate on the restaurant carry bill, about the issue. Marsh made the statement that if everyone could carry concealed in a restaurant where alcohol was served, that someone might bring a concealed gun into a restaurant to murder someone. Senator Cuccinelli asked, "Are you really stupid enough to believe that anyone wanting to commit murder is going to obey a law that says he can't have a concealed gun in there?"
March 9th, 2009 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by celticredneck
Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.
March 9th, 2009 12:30 PM
I am trying to push for students being able to conceal carry on campus down here in Kingsville, TX. The main arguement that people say is that guns are not allowed on campus. I ask them if guns were allowed on V Tech, and then I ask them how come the invisible force field that is to stop guns from coming on this campus does not work because I have come to school right after a hunting trip and not had time to drop off the rifle. They come on campus people need to open their eyes and think a little bit. I fear that will take a school shooting to happen here in TX before somebody does something.
The Campus Carry bill went before TX leg. on Feb 26. Lets hope it passes!!
March 9th, 2009 12:51 PM
No one wants to listen.....
This is not hapening.... it is against the law to enter a place of worship with a gun with out the permission of the church counsel... So these stories have to have been made up by the press... After all no law abiding citizen would disobey these rules.... N The criminals Oby the gun laws too don't they?????
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
March 9th, 2009 01:18 PM
From my blog on townhall...
Possible fixes to 'Gun Free Zones', or as I like to call them, 'Criminal Empowerment Zones', and why they won't work...
Solution 1: Provide adequate security checkpoints to ensure people cannot come onto the property armed.
Problem: A campus or mall is too large of an area with too many entrance points. Even with high security fences, unless somebody was stationed every 50 feet, people could still smuggle guns or people across and retrieve the gun after going through the checkpoint.
Solution 2: Force people to go through a single checkpoint with metal detectors at the entrance.
Problem: A metal detector with the sensitivity set low enough to detect a gun would also be sensitive enough to go off on keys, change, belt buckles, watches, etc. The time to pass several thousand people through a somewhat adequate security checkpoint can be easily seen at your local airport. You also run into the same problem as solution #1. Checkpoints can be bypassed.
Solution 3: Prevent a person who intends to commit a crime from coming on the property.
Problem: You don't know who is the threat until they have already started because the bad guys look just like the good guys.
Solution 4: Prosecute people who commit gun related offenses in Gun Free Zones to the fullest extent of the law.
Problem: Our legal system and even our Police Department is a reactionary system, not a prevention system. If you do this, we will do this. For any illegal action, there will be certain consequences. This is done in the hopes that the threat of a consequence will be a deterrent to crime. The trouble with that is; if you have somebody that is prepared to die, and intends to die, to carry out whatever plans he has, he is impossible to stop because of the very nature of our legal system. We could only punish him afterwards, and if he kills himself, we are kind of left holding the bag. A punishment based system, just doesn't work if they guy is willing to die. It's even less effective if he wants to die.
As has been proven many times before, the only way to prevent a crime from occuring or from escalating are for there to be good citizens at the crime's location, who are legally armed and willing to stop that crime. So, it appears to me, the only way to 'fix' gun free zones is to abolish them.
Until people realize the sheer idocracy if 'gun free zones', these things will continue to happen.
March 9th, 2009 01:29 PM
Actually Texas had the first school shooting in modern times, the date was Aug. 1, 1966, the place was University of Texas in Austin. A student killed 14 and wounded 32 more shooting from the admin building tower.
Originally Posted by wine6978
At the time there was no such thing as a "gun free zone". The police were aided by local civilians with their hunting rifles. Their fire helped keep the killer at bay, allowing wounded to be evacuated. A civilian using a borrowed rifle was in on the final assault on the tower. See link for more info:
Charles Whitman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
March 9th, 2009 05:05 PM
Kinda funny how those little details never make it into these "studies" on guns in America.
Originally Posted by archer51
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
March 9th, 2009 07:13 PM
Thirty-six states are “shall-issue” states, local authorities cannot require qualified applicants to "show a need" before the applicant is issued a concealed handgun license/concealed carry weapons permit. Fifteen "shall-issue" states leave the decision of concealed carry on college campuses entirely to each college/university. These states are Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia. As far as I know there are only two colleges in these states that allow CC. I believe Colorado State is one of those.
S&W 442, Bersa 380, S&W 9mm M&P, Springfield XD40c
Member: NRA, USCCA
March 9th, 2009 09:01 PM
I am a student at the University of Missouri, and they do not allow "weapons" of any sort on campus, which I really disagree with. It seems like every month we are getting some clery release from MUPD about somebody getting robbed or assulted. Now we do have these red emergencies things all around campus that link directly with dispatch, and they claim the longest repsonse time will be 1 minute? But how are you supposed to reach one of these things and hit the button while youre being robbed or assaulted and then wait for the police to get there? I just don't understand it. Granted here in Missouri you must be 23 to get your CCW from the state, but there are ways around that. I know that it will never happen, and the sad thing is that many of my friends my age disagree with concealed carry. They feel there is no need for it when we have a police force. But I guess they're right, when seconds count the police are only minutes away. I completely respect all LEO, as would like to become one after I get out of school, but they know that in some situations other measure should be taken.
March 9th, 2009 10:22 PM
In the not too distant past the worry was that a young student would blow his toes off accidentally while drinking beer and cleaning his rifle.
Now we have terrorists looking for easy targets.
March 9th, 2009 11:10 PM
I agree, but I would make the above...solution #5, and the most effective.
Originally Posted by Kerbouchard
To the OP...
Make sure that your flock is well-armed.
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
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