Church and School shootings

Church and School shootings

This is a discussion on Church and School shootings within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Today's church shooting has really been bothering me. I just got done doing a search (Google) and found 14 church shootings and 27 school shootings ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Church and School shootings

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,813

    Church and School shootings

    Today's church shooting has really been bothering me.

    I just got done doing a search (Google) and found 14 church shootings and 27 school shootings since 1999. I didn't do a search of synagogues, but I know there have been incidents (the Seattle Jewish Center and an LA Jewish Center, I believe) there as well.

    There were a total of 43 murders and 35 wounded at churches.
    78 killed and 88 wounded at schools (with the overachieving scumbags at Columbine-15 killed and 23 wounded-and VT-32 killed, 15 wounded-being the major 'battlefields').
    (None of the gunmen were included in the above statistics.)

    I know I am preaching to the choir (so to speak), but if Victim Disarmament Zones (and that is what schools are) can have this many murders and attempted murders, then nowhere (including churches, malls, homes, fill in the blank of your favorite place where it seems one could be in a safe place) is necessarily safe.

    I guess I am more venting than anything else. I know you all understand. Most of the people I see around me probably think we are nutjobs to begin with. To have to think about these kinds of things at church or synagogue just fries their circuitry.

    Tomorrow, I get off the 'X.' There will be a Safety Team begun this week. There will be much to figure out, including how to handle denominational authorities and contingency plans for events other than active shooters (heart attack, child abduction, etc.).

    I will also push the denominational folks to do something intelligent. I know, that's a stretch, but I will give it a try.

    Thanks for your wisdom and experience. Y'all push me to grow and think. I thank you for that.

    Mike
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,271
    I had a conversation with an acquaintance about today's church shooting. She has no problem with churches employing a paid or volunteer security detail but she still desperately clings to the opinion that "regular people having a gun is just bad."

    I tried mentioning the woefully inadequate training of many security "professionals" and how the average citizen can spend a weekend getting better firearms training than you'll find in many police academies, but her logic-proof vest proved invulnerable.

    *sigh*
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    27,341
    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    ... if Victim Disarmament Zones ... can have this many murders ... then nowhere ... is necessarily safe.
    It's simpler than that, even.

    It's not because such places have proven incidents occur. It's simply because such places are as accessible to one person as the next. Being publicly-accessible spaces means one thing, quite simply: anyone can go there. Wherever you can easily go, so can an armed criminal. And there's the rub. In public spaces, such attendance by criminals cannot be halted, let alone (generally) even detected. All you can really do is to hope to respond quickly and effectively if/when such criminals decide to do damage.

    Which is why I'm of the opinion that having all citizens armed to the teeth can be the ultimate deterrent, as it's the only thing that can respond on the instant of an attack, since everyone else "assigned" to the task of protecting us is a phone call away (ie, not present RIGHT NOW). It is that simple.

    I wish you luck and success in helping to appeal to the rational, intellectual side of the people who will be hearing your case. The logic is irrefutable. Only emotions and politics can get in the way. It might help to use the analogy of "wolves." When wolves are hounding your flock, you cannot reason with them. Only by protecting the flock and ensuring swift halting of attacks can you minimize the damage done by attacks. Only by helping the wolves physically see the error of their ways can you hope to eliminate the wolves from the herd.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #4
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    Unfortunately, the reaction of all too many people to these kinds of statistics is that we need greater gun control, not less.

    I was at our synagogues Purim Festival yesterday. We had all kinds of activities for kids, from rock climbing wall, to bounce houses, etc., and had hundreds of people coming and going throughout the day, many of whom were not members of the synagogue.

    I was really concerned about some nut case coming in and did not leave my two grandkids out of my sight. Fortunately, my daughter and son-in-law share my concerns and do not think me paranoid.

    But, I think that it is a very sad commentary about what has happened to our society that we have to feel and act this way. Necessary, but sad.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  5. #5
    Member Array celticredneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Amelia Virginia
    Posts
    383
    Shameful! Those people doing the shootings should be arrested for violating the gun free zone laws! Seriously, when are the sheep ever going to understand that the only people who are going to obey their gun free zones are the ones who aren't going there to kill some one. There was an exchange between senator Marsh and Senator Cuccinelli, during debate on the restaurant carry bill, about the issue. Marsh made the statement that if everyone could carry concealed in a restaurant where alcohol was served, that someone might bring a concealed gun into a restaurant to murder someone. Senator Cuccinelli asked, "Are you really stupid enough to believe that anyone wanting to commit murder is going to obey a law that says he can't have a concealed gun in there?"

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    Shameful! Those people doing the shootings should be arrested for violating the gun free zone laws! Seriously, when are the sheep ever going to understand that the only people who are going to obey their gun free zones are the ones who aren't going there to kill some one. There was an exchange between senator Marsh and Senator Cuccinelli, during debate on the restaurant carry bill, about the issue. Marsh made the statement that if everyone could carry concealed in a restaurant where alcohol was served, that someone might bring a concealed gun into a restaurant to murder someone. Senator Cuccinelli asked, "Are you really stupid enough to believe that anyone wanting to commit murder is going to obey a law that says he can't have a concealed gun in there?"
    Bingo!!!
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  7. #7
    Member Array wine6978's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kingsville, TX
    Posts
    163
    I am trying to push for students being able to conceal carry on campus down here in Kingsville, TX. The main arguement that people say is that guns are not allowed on campus. I ask them if guns were allowed on V Tech, and then I ask them how come the invisible force field that is to stop guns from coming on this campus does not work because I have come to school right after a hunting trip and not had time to drop off the rifle. They come on campus people need to open their eyes and think a little bit. I fear that will take a school shooting to happen here in TX before somebody does something.

    The Campus Carry bill went before TX leg. on Feb 26. Lets hope it passes!!

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Battle Creek, Mi.
    Posts
    2,286

    No one wants to listen.....

    This is not hapening.... it is against the law to enter a place of worship with a gun with out the permission of the church counsel... So these stories have to have been made up by the press... After all no law abiding citizen would disobey these rules.... N The criminals Oby the gun laws too don't they?????
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,894
    From my blog on townhall...

    Possible fixes to 'Gun Free Zones', or as I like to call them, 'Criminal Empowerment Zones', and why they won't work...

    Solution 1: Provide adequate security checkpoints to ensure people cannot come onto the property armed.
    Problem: A campus or mall is too large of an area with too many entrance points. Even with high security fences, unless somebody was stationed every 50 feet, people could still smuggle guns or people across and retrieve the gun after going through the checkpoint.

    Solution 2: Force people to go through a single checkpoint with metal detectors at the entrance.
    Problem: A metal detector with the sensitivity set low enough to detect a gun would also be sensitive enough to go off on keys, change, belt buckles, watches, etc. The time to pass several thousand people through a somewhat adequate security checkpoint can be easily seen at your local airport. You also run into the same problem as solution #1. Checkpoints can be bypassed.

    Solution 3: Prevent a person who intends to commit a crime from coming on the property.
    Problem: You don't know who is the threat until they have already started because the bad guys look just like the good guys.

    Solution 4: Prosecute people who commit gun related offenses in Gun Free Zones to the fullest extent of the law.
    Problem: Our legal system and even our Police Department is a reactionary system, not a prevention system. If you do this, we will do this. For any illegal action, there will be certain consequences. This is done in the hopes that the threat of a consequence will be a deterrent to crime. The trouble with that is; if you have somebody that is prepared to die, and intends to die, to carry out whatever plans he has, he is impossible to stop because of the very nature of our legal system. We could only punish him afterwards, and if he kills himself, we are kind of left holding the bag. A punishment based system, just doesn't work if they guy is willing to die. It's even less effective if he wants to die.

    As has been proven many times before, the only way to prevent a crime from occuring or from escalating are for there to be good citizens at the crime's location, who are legally armed and willing to stop that crime. So, it appears to me, the only way to 'fix' gun free zones is to abolish them.


    Until people realize the sheer idocracy if 'gun free zones', these things will continue to happen.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  10. #10
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,845
    Quote Originally Posted by wine6978 View Post
    I am trying to push for students being able to conceal carry on campus down here in Kingsville, TX. The main arguement that people say is that guns are not allowed on campus. I ask them if guns were allowed on V Tech, and then I ask them how come the invisible force field that is to stop guns from coming on this campus does not work because I have come to school right after a hunting trip and not had time to drop off the rifle. They come on campus people need to open their eyes and think a little bit. I fear that will take a school shooting to happen here in TX before somebody does something.

    The Campus Carry bill went before TX leg. on Feb 26. Lets hope it passes!!
    Actually Texas had the first school shooting in modern times, the date was Aug. 1, 1966, the place was University of Texas in Austin. A student killed 14 and wounded 32 more shooting from the admin building tower.
    At the time there was no such thing as a "gun free zone". The police were aided by local civilians with their hunting rifles. Their fire helped keep the killer at bay, allowing wounded to be evacuated. A civilian using a borrowed rifle was in on the final assault on the tower. See link for more info:

    Charles Whitman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,271
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    The police were aided by local civilians with their hunting rifles. Their fire helped keep the killer at bay, allowing wounded to be evacuated. A civilian using a borrowed rifle was in on the final assault on the tower.
    Kinda funny how those little details never make it into these "studies" on guns in America.


    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  12. #12
    Member Array JimH58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Posts
    300
    Thirty-six states are “shall-issue” states, local authorities cannot require qualified applicants to "show a need" before the applicant is issued a concealed handgun license/concealed carry weapons permit. Fifteen "shall-issue" states leave the decision of concealed carry on college campuses entirely to each college/university. These states are Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia. As far as I know there are only two colleges in these states that allow CC. I believe Colorado State is one of those.
    JimH
    Kentucky
    ********************************
    S&W 442, Bersa 380, S&W 9mm M&P, Springfield XD40c
    ********************************
    Member: NRA, USCCA

  13. #13
    Member Array HKkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    COMO/Hannibal
    Posts
    235
    I am a student at the University of Missouri, and they do not allow "weapons" of any sort on campus, which I really disagree with. It seems like every month we are getting some clery release from MUPD about somebody getting robbed or assulted. Now we do have these red emergencies things all around campus that link directly with dispatch, and they claim the longest repsonse time will be 1 minute? But how are you supposed to reach one of these things and hit the button while youre being robbed or assaulted and then wait for the police to get there? I just don't understand it. Granted here in Missouri you must be 23 to get your CCW from the state, but there are ways around that. I know that it will never happen, and the sad thing is that many of my friends my age disagree with concealed carry. They feel there is no need for it when we have a police force. But I guess they're right, when seconds count the police are only minutes away. I completely respect all LEO, as would like to become one after I get out of school, but they know that in some situations other measure should be taken.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    1,095
    In the not too distant past the worry was that a young student would blow his toes off accidentally while drinking beer and cleaning his rifle.
    Now we have terrorists looking for easy targets.

  15. #15
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    45,051
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    From my blog on townhall...

    Possible fixes to 'Gun Free Zones', or as I like to call them, 'Criminal Empowerment Zones', and why they won't work...

    Solution 1: Provide adequate security checkpoints to ensure people cannot come onto the property armed.
    Problem: A campus or mall is too large of an area with too many entrance points. Even with high security fences, unless somebody was stationed every 50 feet, people could still smuggle guns or people across and retrieve the gun after going through the checkpoint.

    Solution 2: Force people to go through a single checkpoint with metal detectors at the entrance.
    Problem: A metal detector with the sensitivity set low enough to detect a gun would also be sensitive enough to go off on keys, change, belt buckles, watches, etc. The time to pass several thousand people through a somewhat adequate security checkpoint can be easily seen at your local airport. You also run into the same problem as solution #1. Checkpoints can be bypassed.

    Solution 3: Prevent a person who intends to commit a crime from coming on the property.
    Problem: You don't know who is the threat until they have already started because the bad guys look just like the good guys.

    Solution 4: Prosecute people who commit gun related offenses in Gun Free Zones to the fullest extent of the law.
    Problem: Our legal system and even our Police Department is a reactionary system, not a prevention system. If you do this, we will do this. For any illegal action, there will be certain consequences. This is done in the hopes that the threat of a consequence will be a deterrent to crime. The trouble with that is; if you have somebody that is prepared to die, and intends to die, to carry out whatever plans he has, he is impossible to stop because of the very nature of our legal system. We could only punish him afterwards, and if he kills himself, we are kind of left holding the bag. A punishment based system, just doesn't work if they guy is willing to die. It's even less effective if he wants to die.

    As has been proven many times before, the only way to prevent a crime from occuring or from escalating are for there to be good citizens at the crime's location, who are legally armed and willing to stop that crime. So, it appears to me, the only way to 'fix' gun free zones is to abolish them.


    Until people realize the sheer idocracy if 'gun free zones', these things will continue to happen.
    I agree, but I would make the above...solution #5, and the most effective.

    To the OP...
    Michael,

    Make sure that your flock is well-armed.

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Database of Church Shootings
    By dawg23 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: June 23rd, 2010, 10:01 PM
  2. 18 church shootings in 11 years (A comprehensive list)
    By paramedic70002 in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: February 19th, 2010, 11:31 PM
  3. School shootings.
    By BlackJack in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: May 23rd, 2008, 09:32 PM
  4. Still waiting on how Brady org will spin church shootings
    By Tim the Teacher in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: December 24th, 2007, 08:11 AM
  5. The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings
    By Angio333 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: October 7th, 2006, 10:37 AM

Search tags for this page

church shooting statistics

,
church shootings and school shootings
,
church shootings since 2009
,

church shootings statistics

,

church shootings vs school shootings

,

concealed handguns sheepdog

,

how many church shootings have there been

,

list of church shootings

,

more church shootings than school shootings

,

school shootings statistics

,
school shootings vs church shootings
,
sheepdog police
Click on a term to search for related topics.