Situation over the past weekend (was I wrong?)
This is a discussion on Situation over the past weekend (was I wrong?) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, so SD is the only time we may use lethal force in VA? We aren't allowed to use lethal force in the prevention of ...
March 10th, 2009 03:26 AM
Okay, so SD is the only time we may use lethal force in VA? We aren't allowed to use lethal force in the prevention of a felony? I know we can't use it after the felony has occurred e.g. We can't shoot the thief in the back as he's riding away on your motorcycle.
What was the guy supposed to do if the BG, who was bigger by 3 " & 100 lbs, told him to "bleep off" and went on trying to hot-wire the bike?
When the owner arrived, the crime escalated from theft to robbery.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
March 10th, 2009 03:26 AM
March 10th, 2009 03:39 AM
as was stated here prior.
SAY NO MORE!
take your lawer to the meeting (if you go).
you are not compled and nothing good can come from it.
retain the lawer at least (prior message implied that you have)
if they do arest you or come get you and arest you, say nothing with out your lawer. let your lawer do the talking.
and I wish you the best
AFTER this is over, then tell us what the deal was.
if there is a next time, call the police and report, then hangup and call your lawer. make no statment untell he/she arives.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.
March 10th, 2009 04:08 AM
Aka in fear for your life.
Originally Posted by atctimmy
Does VA have a requirement to retreat?
I think, it depends if WV or VA. I think WV has a requirement to retreat. I'm not sure where I stayed (I was near DC). I can't remember if I was in Maryland, WV, or VA last time I went to DC. Like 7 years go I stayed in a state that had a requirement to retreat. I'm not sure if it still does.
Again, I'm not sure, but that could be the issue being considering.
S&W 642 (no-lock) with .38 Spl +P 135 GR Gold GDHP
Glock G31 & G33 with .357 Sig 125 GR. SXT Winchester Ranger
March 10th, 2009 05:24 AM
Also to be considered, VA's castel laws.
Originally Posted by Thanis
Is your vehicle considered part/an extension of your home in VA?
novcdtshotz, do keep us informed here as to what happened AFTER this matter is resolved. This is an excellent situational study we all can learn from. Bravo Zulu on retaining your lawer.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
March 10th, 2009 10:14 AM
I agree in Michigan at least, brandishing might not apply and since in Michigan we can open carry, revealing your gun might be OK. Not sure if placing a hand on it is a good idea however.
Originally Posted by Rugergirl
As far as "no telling if a holstered gun is loaded or even a real gun." I think this would not hold up in court. Any gun is automatically assumed to be real, functional and loaded. Case in point here two months ago, two masked guys force there way into an insurance office, waving guns around, owner shoots one of them. It later turns out the bad guys guns were airsoft guns. It didn't matter, because the owner had no way of knowing that. He still was in fear for his life when he shot.
I think since you were not disarmed, not taken in for questioning that you can be pretty sure the responding officers are going to make really good witnesses for you is if does go to court. I really can't see this happening.
Hopefully the thief does not own a motorcycle just like yours, and claim that he thought it was his, but that it wouldn't start so he was trying to fix it. That might be the the only possible defense I could see here. Make sure the offices noted in reports if he had his keys in the igniton and if they were checked in when he was booked.
I think, and HOPE your going to be OK.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
I agree, take a lawyer! Since a charge on your record could cause you problems with your employment the lawyers fee would be a really wise investment!
March 10th, 2009 10:26 AM
This is no longer about the responding cop. It also has nothing to do with common sense - it has to do with the LAW. And unfortunately, in many situations, the INTERPRETATION of the law.
Any cop with common sense would would see that you were in the right
As to motorcycle & "castle", I'd say it's the same as if perp was in your car hotwiring it when you return... you have no grounds to present your weapon.
Another poster asked about deadly force to prevent a felony - absolutely not. Tax evasion is a felony. Shall we lie in wait outside the local H&R Block, waiting for potential targets? You can use deadly force to protect another person who is being attacked, and you fear for their life. But you better be DAMNED SURE of the situation. (Note, this is GA code.)
March 10th, 2009 10:26 AM
Wait, can you get him to admit he ASKED you what you WANTED him to do. Geesh, you were just trying to help him get his life straightened out!
Originally Posted by novcdtshotz
March 10th, 2009 11:13 AM
I think if they wanted to charge him, he would have been charged and picked up at his house.
Why just ask him to come in?
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Previously known as "cjm5874"
March 10th, 2009 11:24 AM
I say bravo.
IMHO you did absolutely nothing wrong. Even though you may have been "technically" over the line. I'm not 100% sure that a D.A. would want to waste his time or taxpayer's money on prosecuting you. I don't believe a jury would convict. Now, that being said, If it was me? I wouldn't make the D.A.'s job any easier. I wouldn't take any chances. Like other posters have said. I'd take my lawyer with me when I went to see the detectives and when I got to the station, I would try really hard to, NOT adopt the posture/ demeanor of someone who's worried that he may have done something wrong. I wouldn't be cocky or glib. I'd be solemn and polite and I wouldn't answer ANY question, without my lawyer's advice and if I did answer, I'd be straight to the point.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" - Thomas Jefferson
"The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth." - Stonewall Jackson
March 10th, 2009 12:14 PM
VA does require you to retreat.
Thanis: Does VA have a requirement to retreat?
Unfortunately VA does not have a Castle Doctrine.
goldshellback: Also to be considered, VA's castel laws.
March 10th, 2009 12:37 PM
Virginia is an open carry state. As long as the wepon stayed holstered there should not be any trouble. The only thing Northern Virginia is not a conservative
thinking area. You did not force him to stay he could have left at any time
When a Government become ultra concerned about its citizen's guns its time to beconcerned about the Governments long term plans Me
March 10th, 2009 02:04 PM
Ask your lawyer to call the Detective and find out if charges are being contemplated. Then you will have peace of mind and can get your affairs in order. Also you can preemptively decide to STHU before you walk in and incriminate yourself.
Possible one of the witnesses had a cow about your being armed and is pushing the issue?
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
March 10th, 2009 02:13 PM
I'm not going to read all 8 pages but...
You did good, you kept your cool, kept the BG under control, called the Police ASAP, you had witnesses, so it look's like you are rock solid... now go enjoy a ride and welcome to the group.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
March 10th, 2009 03:15 PM
You really need to read what you wrote happened (first post) and see if it fits the definition. You brushed the side of your jacket back and rested the your palm on the grip of your pistol. Does that sound concealled? Does resting your palm on the grip suggest inducing fear in another person? I too like alot of good folks on here Am Not A Lawyer, but seriously... read what you wrote and the definition. Glad I wasnt in your position then and glad that I'm not now. And hopefully the guy that you suggested to sit on the curb doesnt read this forum. You've been leaving way too much of a paper trail on here to do you any good. Bring your lawyer on Thursday and stop talking about it on here until its over.
I am a licensed CCW holder, and carry everywhere I go. I was carrying a full size Star Mod30m @ 4 O'clock in a "cowboy" style holster, and brushed the side of my jacket back and rested my palm on the grip of my pistol (at that point, the guy knew I was armed).
§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
By virtue of VA law you are guilty of brandishing a weapon. You were not acting in self defense, you were protecting personal property. Whether you will be charged or not is totally up to the decision of the DA there in Fairfax Co.
Webster definition of brandish:
Main Entry: 1bran·dish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English braundisshen, from Anglo-French brandiss-, stem of brandir, from brant, braund sword, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English brand
Date: 14th century
1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
S&W M&P .45
Virginia Beach, Va.
Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Range Officer
March 10th, 2009 03:26 PM
Alright; got a another call last night from the Detective that wanted to see me.
The LEO from the scene who gave me his card that I called yesterday got word back to that detective about what my lawyer was telling me, and our interpretation of his phone call. (ie: that I thought I was going to jail, and my lawyer was pretty sure that was the case too)
The Detective called me to let me know that I have nothing to worry about; no charges are being brought or considered against me. (HUGE relief to me .. I've been freaking out since this happened .. especially after my lawyer recommended that I "bring an overnight bag" on Thursday ) The det. and police officer assured me that I was in the right during the encounter, and they've said that they can't think of anything I could have done differently to better preserve my safety, and the safety of the BG. He said it's completely understandable for me to be thinking the way I was about being charged; he's seen more than one scumbag lawyer go after cases like this with the spin of "White guy playing "cowboy" profiles disadvantaged, middle-aged minority." He was extremely appologetic, and offered to buy me some range time in compensation!
Here's where the story gets interesting...
I need to report to the PD to sign my statement; somehow that got overlooked on the initial police report. I also need to expand on my statement to include any and all details I can remember.
When they got the guy in the tank he apparently rolled pretty easily on a larger motorcycle theft-ring. They're investigating that aspect of it now, but it looks like they may have found numerous other stolen vehicles / property at the location this guy gave up.
The problem comes in the affiliations of this guy and that particular "shop." There's a fairly sizable minority gang that has ties to both this guy, and the shop they busted. They're having me get my statement straight so that the chances of me being called in to court / identified to the BG are slim. You can make your own interpretation from there on which large-scale, international minorty gang with thousands of members in the DC / NOVA area they're referring to, and you'll see why they're trying to keep my details private; I don't want a Google search linking that acronym to my fairly detailed story here. I'm also removing the picture of my motorcycle, and would like to ask any mod that sees this to make sure it's gone (just being double careful about that pic)
The detective thinks that everything should work out in a couple of weeks / months, but that in the meantime I should keep my head down, and think about renting a car vs. riding my extremely distinct motorcycle (again on the indentification part). The guy apparently put up no resistance to their questioning, but was pretty adament in his "big" talk about not being afraid or worried about the police.
So that's where I am now; I made a judgement call that appears to have been more on the correct side than not. I'm hopeful that nothing comes of this in terms of further incident, but you can bet your bums that I'm going to be a little bit extra paranoid in the near future about everyone I see.
Thanks for all the input guys and gals; I actually brought up some of the points here over the phone with the detective. He said that brandishing and kidnapping COULD be justifiably charged here, but that any jury would throw it out (even without exposing the guys record).
Thanks again all; I'll stick around! I've found some interesting info on the other sub-forums!
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