Question about castle law

This is a discussion on Question about castle law within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff Wouldn't the key part of your statement here by "attacked"? By your definition, the OP could walk in to his grandpa's ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26

Thread: Question about castle law

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,342
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Wouldn't the key part of your statement here by "attacked"?



    By your definition, the OP could walk in to his grandpa's house and find two young adults doing the dirty on his grandpa's couch and shoot them both with their pants down. Now say the girlfriend survives and her statement says, "we knew the old man was away and we were just looking for a private place to make love so we broke the window and snuck in." You think castle doctrine is going to protect you there? (if the OP was ALREADY in the home when they broke the window then Castle Law would presume fear and I think the OP WOULD be pretty stinkin scared)

    So I'll go back to my original statement and say; for the sake of your concience and for whatever may happen in court, make sure you are in fear of your life before you draw your weapon.

    Not my "definition". Florida law. Yours may vary.

    BTW, the fact that you may respond with deadly force, in no way means that you should in every case.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,047
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    No you are within your right to use deadly force to stop a threat,We don't shoot to kill,as a result of using deadly force the BG dies we can't help that but to imply that you keep shooting til he's dead would be setting yourself up for a murder rap
    The "shoot to stop a threat" is politically correct jargon to make the act of killing someone seem less graphic and brutal. I am not a politically correct person.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  4. #18
    Member Array C Zeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    The "shoot to stop a threat" is politically correct jargon to make the act of killing someone seem less graphic and brutal. I am not a politically correct person.
    Understood, I knew what you meant. And yes David, I also agree with what you are saying about every situation. Obviously, like many say on hear, you have to play it by ear and for a situation to go exactly like any stated on here is probably not going to happen. However, Tinkerin stated I would be pretty scared and I am sure that would be the case, so hopefully this never happens to me in the first place. Thanks for all of the posts guys and gals, I found some good information.
    I know what you're thinking, "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself...you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? - Dirty Harry

  5. #19
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    From Harvard Law:

    Second, the bill claims to codify the castle doctrine, a common law privilege that allows a person attacked within his dwelling to stand his ground. This attempt to codify the castle doctrine is significant because it not only extends the conception of one’s castle to include vehicles but also eliminates the requirement of necessity. The bill accomplishes the latter change through Florida Statute § 776.013, which sets forth a pre-sumption that removes the home or vehicle occupant’s burden of provingthat he feared for his safety. Now, a person who uses deadly force againstan intruder is presumed to have a reasonable fear of death or bodily injury. According to the Senate Committee Report, this presumption is irrebuttable. Therefore, a court will not entertain arguments showing the non-existence of the presumed fact, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Rather, a court will direct a jury that if they find the basic fact, that the victim was unlawfully in the actor’s dwelling or vehicle, to be proven, then they must find the presumed fact that the actor had a reasonable fear of imminent death or bodily injury. This finding in turn justifies the use of deadly force, regardless of the circumstances.

    Full text here:

    http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/..._1/michael.pdf

    Jon Gutmacher agrees. If you have his book, page 200 under the heading "HOW DOES THIS SECTION, 776.013 WORK?" pertains. In short, it confirms that the presumptions are absolute and cannot be controverted or rebutted in a court of law.

    Of course, we're talking FL specific law here and the castle doctrine in another state may vary. As always, one must know the specific laws as they apply to the state in which they live.

    Interesting. You are, of course, correct that it is state statute specific. Does Gutmacher, for whom I have the greatest respect, cite any actual Florida cases to support that statement? I learn something new all the time around here.

    I believe that under most "Castle Doctrine" statutes, however, it is a rebuttable presumption.

    For example, assume that the BG is in the house when you come home, is attempting to run out the back door, is unarmed and you shoot him in the back. No problem in Florida? If not, this is a great state to be living in.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post

    Interesting. You are, of course, correct that it is state statute specific. Does Gutmacher, for whom I have the greatest respect, cite any actual Florida cases to support that statement?
    No case law cite. He does cite the Judiciary Committee, Senate Staff Analysis of Feb 25, 2005 however.

    Wish I could tell you that I knew this one off the top of my head, but the truth is that when you mentioned the possibility that the presumption might be rebuttable, I had to dig a little. As you said, you gotta love FL!

    BTW Ron, I'm sure as heck not going to make it a habit to debate law with you, firearm or otherwise!
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

  7. #21
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    No case law cite. He does cite the Judiciary Committee, Senate Staff Analysis of Feb 25, 2005 however.

    Wish I could tell you that I knew this one off the top of my head, but the truth is that when you mentioned the possibility that the presumption might be rebuttable, I had to dig a little. As you said, you gotta love FL!

    BTW Ron, I'm sure as heck not going to make it a habit to debate law with you, firearm or otherwise!
    David,

    Please feel free to debate away. My areas of expertise are Corporate Law and Securites Regulation. I don't pretend to be a criminal law expert, by any means, as witnessed by this latest exchange.

    I made an assumption based upon what I believed to be the general rule relating to "Castle Doctrine" statutes, and am actually pleased to learn something good about Florida law that I was not aware of.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    1,263
    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    Not my "definition". Florida law. Yours may vary.
    Poor choice in my words I guess.

    BTW, the fact that you may respond with deadly force, in no way means that you should in every case.
    Agreed.

    I guess I have a habit of looking at this issue more from the moral standpoint and end up a little simplified on the legal one. No disrespect to the OP with what could have ended up as a real situation; but I frequently see posts about 'the guys yelling and waving his arms' or 'the guy has a knife, am I justified?' or 'the guy has a spatula and a BBQ fork and scared me by beheading an Elmo doll while drooling, am I justified?'

    For me, it's become a simple answer, "I'm not going quietly in the night." I will use deadly force to protect myself and my loved ones when I feel I have no other option. End of story. I'll take the consiquences that come with that whether it be nightmares, court challenges, or jail but I'm not going to loose any sleep or waste any energy worrying about it ahead of time. As far as I'm concerned, the law doesn't give me the right to defend myself and I'm not going to ask the bad guy to hold on while I try to remember whether the law might be on my side if I draw. Let your concience be your guide and if a person is that worried about law then maybe they should reconsider carrying? (maybe I'm mistakenly assuming that most people who go thru the effort to get a permit have a conscience that's capeable of being a guide?)

    Again, to the OP, if this comes off as a rant, please understand that it's not directed at you. I thought your question was valid and sincere. I hope your grandparents get their stuff back. My folks were robbed last year. Turns out it was someone who knew them. they got their stuff back but not their piece of mind.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  9. #23
    Member Array C Zeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    44
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Poor choice in my words I guess.



    Agreed.

    I guess I have a habit of looking at this issue more from the moral standpoint and end up a little simplified on the legal one. No disrespect to the OP with what could have ended up as a real situation; but I frequently see posts about 'the guys yelling and waving his arms' or 'the guy has a knife, am I justified?' or 'the guy has a spatula and a BBQ fork and scared me by beheading an Elmo doll while drooling, am I justified?'

    For me, it's become a simple answer, "I'm not going quietly in the night." I will use deadly force to protect myself and my loved ones when I feel I have no other option. End of story. I'll take the consiquences that come with that whether it be nightmares, court challenges, or jail but I'm not going to loose any sleep or waste any energy worrying about it ahead of time. As far as I'm concerned, the law doesn't give me the right to defend myself and I'm not going to ask the bad guy to hold on while I try to remember whether the law might be on my side if I draw. Let your concience be your guide and if a person is that worried about law then maybe they should reconsider carrying? (maybe I'm mistakenly assuming that most people who go thru the effort to get a permit have a conscience that's capeable of being a guide?)

    Again, to the OP, if this comes off as a rant, please understand that it's not directed at you. I thought your question was valid and sincere. I hope your grandparents get their stuff back. My folks were robbed last year. Turns out it was someone who knew them. they got their stuff back but not their piece of mind.
    I understand completely. I also think that is the best post as well. You make a few very good statements. I don't like the idea of having to draw on somebody, but if I ever have to, I think I will know in my mind if that is the right situation. Thanks to everyone. You helped out this newbie to CC (me) very much. I respect all of you for being stand up citizens willing to help make this country a better and safer place. God Bless

    Chad
    I know what you're thinking, "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself...you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? - Dirty Harry

  10. #24
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    One other point: When we discuss these kinds of scenarios we often tend to focus narrowly on the technical legal aspects presented, ignoring the actual reality facing the homeowner or other good guy.

    I am not suggesting we intentionally violate the law, but I agree that if confronted by an intruder in my home, I am not going to wait and ponder whether the "Castle Law" will be applicable and thus permit me to lawfully protect myself and family.

    We usually have to make split second decisions, and then, of course, find out thereafter whether we made the correct "legal" decision.

    When we discuss it on the Forum, we are able to sit back, reflect on the scenario presented and then calmly type out our opinion on what we believe the law is or is not. Very different then being confronted with what appears to us at the time to be a life or death situation.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Battle Creek, Mi.
    Posts
    2,285

    Exclamation My responce....

    Michigan has one of the best Castle Doctrines in the USA, you have a legal right to defend yourself with out the duty to retreat anyplace you have the legal right to be, and it use to read in the home only....

    As to being in fear of your life....
    Watch the evening news...
    Read the local paper....
    Listen to the news on the radio...
    Read the stories online...
    Felons released early from prison...
    Arrest warrants not served...
    Parole violators allowed to go free...
    Revolving door judicial system...
    Crimes go unsolved...
    Police are often 20 minutes away when called...
    Gang crime...
    Illegals with a criminal background....
    Drug crime...
    Armed robery...
    Assault with attempted murder...
    People shot on the street...
    People murdered...
    Kidnapping...
    Rape...
    Car jackings...

    Now add to the fact I am older now 57 to be exact, not exactly in my fighting prime any more, heck I can't even run with out destroying my back.....

    Now tell me just why would any sane individual not be in fear for their life anytime they are confronted by a armed individual or more likely group of individuals. Armed or not 50 of them beat some poor guy half to death in Kalamazoo over his bicycle not too long ago....

    If you are not in fear then you are just plain stupid!!!!
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  12. #26
    New Member Array kev8200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3
    Woman beaten in home burglary / - Augusta, Georgia News, Weather, Sports, Consumer Advocacy and Community Events

    Basically a woman came home from dropping her kids off and found someone in her house who beat her. She later died. If I find someone in my house I am going to assume that they will do whatever they have to do to me so I will take action. I always assume that if someone is willing to break in to a house they are willing to do harm to the people that may be in that house so I would be scared for my, my wife's, son's, dog's life. I am not sure if that would be covered by these laws but that is my way of thinking.

    By the way the neighbor of the lady who was killed (the house that was also hit in the article) was shot in the leg outside her work today or yesterday as well. Weird stuff.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Question About Castle Doctrine
    By mojust in forum Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: November 3rd, 2010, 01:09 PM
  2. Castle Doctrine in NC
    By Deb in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: May 5th, 2009, 09:17 AM
  3. Castle Law
    By mmwb in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: December 28th, 2007, 03:30 PM
  4. Castle Doctrine in MS
    By FLSquirrelHunter in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 30th, 2007, 01:55 PM
  5. Need Help / Info On Castle Doc
    By nextlevelcell in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: July 25th, 2007, 05:22 PM

Search tags for this page

castle law michigan
,
defend your castle law michigan
,
is ct a defend your castle state
,
is michigan a defend your castle state
,

michigan defend your castle

,
michigan protect your castle
,

nc defend your castle law

,
protect your castle law in michigan
Click on a term to search for related topics.