Last night at Safeway - Page 2

Last night at Safeway

This is a discussion on Last night at Safeway within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FreeDelivery I know. I'm wondering if someone thought that a large man charging in your direction was a serious enough threat. How ...

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Thread: Last night at Safeway

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeDelivery View Post
    I know.

    I'm wondering if someone thought that a large man charging in your direction was a serious enough threat. How do I know what he's gonna do to me?

    Not that I think I would have handled it any differently. Just want other opinions.
    If it is clear that the man's intent is to get away, then no. I would make sure he has his avenue to get away by me not getting in the way. Nothing you have said indicated the man had other intentions.

    In fact, not stepping aside and not being involved, could get you involved in a bad way. Too many times have there been incidents where someone (either an employee or a customer) has stepped in front of a fleeing person and gotten their clocks cleaned. I knew a gal who worked a convenience store when two underage football players came in to steal cases of beer. She stepped in front of them on their way out and the guy in front swung one of the cases and struck her square in the head. She ended up going to the hospital.

    The point is, the "bad guy" is a wild animal who is in flight mode. Don't make it so he feels he has to fight his way out. Especially since he had a friend, according to your story. That situation has the potential for a lot of ugly written all over it.

    As far as the security guard, he is trying to be a cowboy. Screw him. That guy thinks he is that good then he doesn't need your help. He needs a pink slip. At the very least, by your description, that guy should be charged with menacing and brandishing after his little stunt at the sidewalk with his taser. I have known and helped a few security and loss prevention people that were good at their jobs, and I have known a lot of ones who think they are cowboys and I stay clear of them.

    As far as calling 911, like Sixto said, why? You didn't have a crime committed against you, and you were clearly out of danger. There were plenty of employees there who are trained on when to call and when not to call. Let them handle it.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.


  2. #17
    Member Array oldnonry's Avatar
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    You did absolutely the right thing. Some people seem to feel that because they have a permit to carry, that somehow "deputizes" them and they feel the need to get involved in situations where they really shouldn't. IMHO that's only asking for legal problems.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" - Thomas Jefferson

    "The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth." - Stonewall Jackson

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnonry View Post
    You did absolutely the right thing. Some people seem to feel that because they have a permit to carry, that somehow "deputizes" them and they feel the need to get involved in situations where they really shouldn't. IMHO that's only asking for legal [and life] problems.
    Agreed with you and others of same, 100%.

    I am not involved nor am I employed by the store as security nor am I a law enforcement officer/agent of any sort...And this person (BG) is neither harming me nor any other person in such a way as to be in fear of life and it's continuance.
    Merely it is a man running from a store fleeing store security.
    Leave him be and/or get out of the way of him/them.

    Attempting to block dude and/or tackle him only to find yourself being gut or chest stabbed (BGs carry too!) or having your head cracked open on the hard tile of the store floor upon impact of the not small nor moving slowly high kinetic energy guy is coming toward you. No thanks. I like not being in the hospital with punctured or broken body parts and not being a coma or suffering life long brain damage.
    As well drawing on dude, and not being a LEO, would be ill advised even if he had stolen something from the store and even if that in said state were a felony action.

    Get out of the way with an easy and effective side step.
    If you for some reason feel strongly to 'do something' then a side step followed by an on the sly foot stuck out so as to cause him to trip as he OJ in an airport fled then so be it. But anything beyond that no way Jose. Not until the fight comes to me directly and actively as in some real and not hypothetical/imagined manner of immediate life and living emergency.

    - Janq is not a law dog
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #19
    Member Array FreeDelivery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I wouldnt have called 911. If the store wanted to report the incident, they would have done so.
    SIXTO, I was "backed into a corner." What if one of them came back and started getting physical? What if one of them had a knife or a gun? I'd rather better my safety (not saying I'm perfectly safe by doing so) by calling 911 and reporting an escalating verbal altercation.

    As I said, I didn't feel safe leaving the store. I would not have felt safe if a fight broke out and came back into the store.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeDelivery View Post
    SIXTO, I was "backed into a corner." What if one of them came back and started getting physical? What if one of them had a knife or a gun? I'd rather better my safety (not saying I'm perfectly safe by doing so) by calling 911 and reporting an escalating verbal altercation.

    As I said, I didn't feel safe leaving the store. I would not have felt safe if a fight broke out and came back into the store.

    Be a good witness and be on your way. If you felt unsafe then you should have called the police.
    One more step and it's on!

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dripster View Post
    Be a good witness and be on your way.
    Agreed, again 100%.

    My first immediate thought and item of focus would be to _remove myself_ from the area of conflict.

    Call me what you will, but by nature and survival instinct I do not want to be near, around, or in the area of conflict.
    Conflict begets Trouble which begets Danger and is closely linked to Injury and/or Death.

    I'm allergic to injury and death, so same as with hay and pollen I remove myself from such areas when I become aware of as much. Even as I do actively carry and use Claritin and Corbon product aids.

    I'd leave my groceries in place where they are (in the cart on the store floor or at the checkout...makes me no difference) and I would immediately without delay beat feet and exit stage left.
    The store manager can deal with dialing 911 and putting my groceries away.

    I would go straight to my vehicle, get in, start it, and drive away...to go home or to some other store where there are no visible allergens to cause me discomfort.
    If I felt strongly enough about the situation to alert the police then I'd do so secondarily after I removed myself from the area where the allergen is located. Make my statement to 911 about what I saw and provide my name and contact information for a police detective to contact me later should the authorities require additional statements from me as an alive and in good health with no fluids running from my body witness.

    Oh, and if I did feel as though I were "backed into a corner" at the front door. Then exit stage back door. Every store everywhere has multiple entrances and exits including side and back doors as well as a shipping/loading dock too at supermarkets. I would not stand there thinking OMG what just happened.
    I would again collect myself, leave my groceries where they are, and beat feet to a safe exit. If that means I have to walk through the door in the back of the store by the butcher/meat area marked as "Employees Only" (it's ALWAYS there in that area at supermarkets) then I'd do so without pause and go right to the employee entrance/exit rear door or if necessary out and off the loading dock itself.

    With my allergies the best and quickest fix tends to be the smell of fresh free of trouble air.
    If that is not available as an option and I'm really jammed up then I will resort as worst case scenario to Claritin and/or Corbon product use.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
    Member Array ggig's Avatar
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    Sorry..There was not any lethal threat directed towards you.. Had you drew your gun and fired and hurt someone or expensive equipment you were in the wrong.......

  8. #23
    New Member Array livewire01's Avatar
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    IMO you did the right thing, no one's life was in harms way, no reason to draw. Guard seems like a real bozo, he should have been the first to call 911 and give them all the info.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    As a former security officer that has had to chase shoplifters outside and into potential ambush zones, I may have 'accidentally' tripped the aspiring track star while getting out of his way.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  10. #25
    Member Array MikeGoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dripster View Post
    Why would you want to intervene in a situation like this in the first place? No weapon was present, you were not a target. Why is it that people feel they need to get involved in every little incident and have to draw a firearm. The idea of having a firearm is to prevent deadly physical force upon yourself or another. It amazes me on how some people who see a threat wants to justify pulling a weapon and intervening, even if they are not directly involved. If you are not a cop don't act like one.
    Very well put! Deadly force is the LAST resort. Getting involved in someone elses problem or not trying to retreat from trouble is the kind of mistake people regret for their entire lives.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeDelivery View Post
    University District
    50th St and Brooklyn Ave NE
    Seattle, WA 98105
    Two black males robbed that Safeway about 35 years ago. One of them was killed the other his name was Jerry Lewis (serious) ran around a corner and ran his face into a .357. The officer blew half his brain off, the barrel was in contact with Jerry Lewis' skull. Never saw anything like it half his head came clean off. He lived. Jerry Lewis is doing life for the 1st degree murder of his crime partner who was killed during the robbery. I would not ever go to the U District unarmed the place has been a haven for dope fiend junkies low life's since the 60's.

    You did OK for yourself. If you did not think you could drop the chump in his tracks get out of the way. Armed is irrelevant drawing a gun would have been inappropriate as the perp was not a threat to you or anyone else.

    Bet LEO did nothing to either of the creeps. Sounds like the security guard needs a new job all the trash talking does not strike me as very professional

    " What is interesting is that Jerry Lewis' autonomic brain functions had to switch brain hemisphere as fast as the bullet went through his brain in order for him to have lived
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  12. #27
    Member Array AgeTurner's Avatar
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    I agree to do nothing at that point. Even if there was a good security officer I probably would have just stepped back.

    Not surprised, that's the U District for ya. I have heard way too many creepy and scary stories from the U District. My brother in law used to work at a Big 5 down there and had some crazy stories. I have seen some messed up stuff down there too and just looking at some of the people could scare a guy. If I have the choice I won't go there without a gun. Even lately there have been some armed robberies. Where gunmen entered homes and held the people at gunpoint while they robbed the place. One guy punched a gunman and got clubbed with the pistol multiple times. I haven't heard if they caught those guys yet or not. Be careful down there!

  13. #28
    Member Array sohmdaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    I would try to get as far out of the way as possible. So on that point you did OK. As to drawing a weapon, or trying to stop him from fleeing. Nope, he wasn't presenting a threat to you and the store has insurance to cover thefts.
    As to the security guard, well the man is an idiot! Screaming, trying to intimidate and trying to call the guy back to the store. Just plain stupid. Wonder if he thinks his stun gun is going to stop a bullet? Made me wonder if his name is Gecko45!
    Your gun is your last resort, you use it when its the only thing that will stop the guy from being your life (or others, depending on the laws of your state) That guard thinks he needs more excitement in his life, unfortunately at the expense of everyone else. Does running constitute a threat? I don't think it does, it might alert you to a possible threat on its way, I definitely would start thinking about drawing my weapon and what i might say, and then see what happens. But I think I would be more inclined to get out of the way, even if it means going on top of the check stand.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeDelivery View Post
    --Assume you had a middle-aged man who was up to no good moments ago running straight at you. Would you even consider drawing your firearm? Could you justify a 190lb man running at you a serious threat? Assume you didn't have time to get out of the guy's way because there was a checkstand blocking your way and the only way to get out of his way is to go towards him then between checkstands or away from him towards the door (his path, dangerous).

    What would I do if security guard was chasing a guy out of a store and they were running straight towards me?

    Step out of the way and hope I don't break any of the eggs I just bought!

    I doubt I would have called 911 in that case. If the store wanted to, that be their business.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonofASniper View Post
    If it is clear that the man's intent is to get away, then no. I would make sure he has his avenue to get away by me not getting in the way. Nothing you have said indicated the man had other intentions.
    +1 in regard to all of SoS' comment.

    Further, my understanding of WA state law (not a lawyer, etc., etc.) suggests you may not display your firearm unless 1) you are directly protecting yourself or another from harm, or 2) detaining someone in the commission of a felony. See 9.41.270.

    It doesn't seem you were overly concerned for your safety, and you did not witness a felony.

    Regardless, you'd be escalating the situation for no good reason.

    Ironically, the security guard probably needs to read 9.41.270. As far as I can tell, his little stunt with the stun gun falls into "exhibit, display or draw" ... "or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm" ... "in a manner" ... "to intimidate another".

    I suppose he would claim Guy #2 threatened him, but my guess is the judge would point out the guy was moving away from him and so was not actually a threat.

    And if he offensively used his little friend on the guy, even worse.

    Maybe there is something I don't know about, but AFAIK, he doesn't have any authority to detain the guy (assuming shoplifting is not a felony).

    My understanding is he should have asked the guy to wait while the police were called *if* he had direct evidence of shoplifting (he saw it, was shown it on tape, etc.). If the guy walked away, he should have let him and just filed a report with the police.

    Again, not a lawyer, etc.

    So, in my case, I'd just try to stay out of the way. If it looked serious enough, I'd say Janq had the blueprint I'd want to follow.

    The real serious mistake you made however, was that you weren't carrying (if I understood your comments correctly).

    -john

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