Sunday afternoon, napping with your wife, your door gets kicked in. True story.

This is a discussion on Sunday afternoon, napping with your wife, your door gets kicked in. True story. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I witnessed the after effects of a burtal home invasion. It taught me a few things 1) There are fates worse than death. 2) Fight ...

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Thread: Sunday afternoon, napping with your wife, your door gets kicked in. True story.

  1. #16
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    I witnessed the after effects of a burtal home invasion. It taught me a few things

    1) There are fates worse than death.

    2) Fight back it is not just your life you are fighting for but all of those that come after you.

    3) Use all means to defend yourself that the law allows.

    4) Police only show up to pick up the pieces (that's what I did)
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

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  3. #17
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    In Virginia, and I suspect in most places, firing at a trespasser without having a factual reason to believe that you were facing an imminent threat of bodily injury is probably attempted murder. It is never dark in Virginia at 4 p.m., so that guy was not a "burglar", and you may not use deadly force merely to defend property rights.

    I'd have the gun out and be ready to shoot, of course, but no shooting until you've seen the guy and have a reason to believe he's dangerous to you or the wife.

    The rules change after dark, because you're entitled to a presumption that a burglar is willing to kill you.
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    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  4. #18
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    Thanks for your replies and the mentions of your personal lives. I'll answer some of the specific questions. For context, the author finished his writing 18 months after the event in early 2001, and the book was published in 2004. So the responses are based on his actions up until the fall of 2002. We can only guess what, if any, changes were made after that date.

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Grady, you did not mention whether the author of that book gained the slightest bit of awareness from that incident.
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I had the same question...is he now a liberal with experience and a bit wiser...did he learn from his experiences?
    Here are some of the changes he mentions he made, and some changes that happened to them:
    • They leave the lights on in certain rooms at night.
    • He changed locks on the house doors.
    • Replaced the shattered door with one reinforced on the bottom half only--they still like the light coming through the upper half. Note: after the breakin, they discovered the shattered door was an interior door installed on the outside of the house. Probably wouldn't have mattered, but it may indicate a previous lack of attention to security issues.
    • He daydreams of having a gun on the day of the invasion. No mention of buying one.
    • His wife stays with family or friends when he travels out of town.
    • His wife dislikes 4 p.m.
    • They burned sage--a Native American custom--in the 4 corners of the house to ward off evil spirits.
    • He reinforced the planks in the backyard fence, although no mention is made of the intruder damaging the fence to gain entry.
    • He did say he was "remaking his place" and "disinviting the predator", apparently making some outside changes to encourage a predeator to keep on looking for a softer target.
    • Entered therapy.
    • Night terrors.
    • Expectations of suddenness, and lack of calmness.
    • A false perception of reality shattered (my words, not his).


    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Did he move?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Did he install an alarm system?
    Already had one. Not turned on the afternoon of the invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Did he buy weapons and start training?
    No mention of buying weapons or getting training.

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    I'm suspecting that he did none of those things, and he is still working on his "closure".
    Yep. He wrote a book for his "closure", a closure which 18 months after the fact still seems elusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    My wife passively accepts my guns but doesn't really see the need to carry all the time.

    That only makes our jobs harder. I doesn't diminish our duties as provider and protector of our families.
    Abolute truth. Those who take their duties seriously will not drop their guard due to some dissent, no matter how strenuous the dissent. The words and actions of one who doesn't see the threat do not alter the threat one bit.

    As I told my wife during the mentioned conversation, "The fact that you don't see the threat doesn't make it less likely to occur. In fact, it makes a threat MORE likely to materialize because you are not taking precautions against it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Precision View Post
    I too will not date condition white people. Within a few dates, I set up a range day. If they choose to avoid, they choose to leave my life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Precision View Post
    I like to think that my failures in dating are helping to bring the shooting world to more women. :-D


    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    trusting in God for protection isn't the issue, its trusting in the abilities and mindset that God has given us. Trust in God sure, but just because you do doesn't mean you should not stand up to violence and threats against your family or other innocents. He doesn't want us to just lay down and die when threatened.
    Yes. An open truth hidden to many.

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    sorry, I'll get off my rant
    It's not a rant. It's a true interpretation of the ancient writings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    A gun in the hands of the victims would have put a screeching halt to this home invasion. this guy and his wife were extremely lucky. I wonder if he owns a gun now? Things could have turned out a lot worse.
    Absolutely. Absolutely. No mention, and doubtful. Absolutely.

    My intention is not to be critical of the man himself, but rather to critique his lack of planning, preparation, and followup. I appreciate him writing his story that others may learn better ways to deal with a home invasion.

    What I garnered from his book is likely not the message he intended given his background and response to the event. However, even if I'm correct, his intentions have no bearing on how I protect my family. I will learn whatever I can from whomever I can in order to make our own preparations.

    I have no ill will toward him, but rather some pity, because of his chosen mindset. I hope he has tilted even further toward self defense in the time since the book's publication.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I learned a long time ago: THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE!

    Safety varies by degree, and some places are more safe than others, but none are 100% "safe".
    Truths written in stone, at least for this life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiller2 View Post
    That Guy would have been unarmed even if he had a .50 machine gun he had already made the decision to be a sheep.As others have said the only weapon you have is behind your eyes and between your ears everything else is just a tool. The BG had no apparent weapon yet the guy and his wife submit to his every whim.
    Agreed on all counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    I witnessed the after effects of a burtal home invasion. It taught me a few things

    1) There are fates worse than death.

    2) Fight back it is not just your life you are fighting for but all of those that come after you.

    3) Use all means to defend yourself that the law allows.

    4) Police only show up to pick up the pieces (that's what I did)
    Sadly, you are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    In Virginia, and I suspect in most places, firing at a trespasser without having a factual reason to believe that you were facing an imminent threat of bodily injury is probably attempted murder. It is never dark in Virginia at 4 p.m., so that guy was not a "burglar", and you may not use deadly force merely to defend property rights.
    A trespasser who just broke into my house is an imminent threat of bodily injury to me and mine. Yes, we have Castle Doctrine here which negates even the worst argument to not fire, but I find it hard to believe the situation in the book would result in attempted murder. That particular interpretation of the law, whether correct or not, would in no way keep me from protecting my family to the fullest. The required action would be so clear to me I wouldn't even blink an eye wondering about it.

    I do hope your interpretation of the law is incorrect. I don't know the laws in VA, but I would think they allow someone to protect themselves from a home invasion. What do your lawmakers suggest, asking the invader to submit to a series of questions while you determine if you are "allowed" to protect yourselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I'd have the gun out and be ready to shoot, of course, but no shooting until you've seen the guy and have a reason to believe he's dangerous to you or the wife.
    If he just broke into my house and I see him, all the qualifications you mentioned have been fully met.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The rules change after dark, because you're entitled to a presumption that a burglar is willing to kill you.
    I seriously hope you are wrong in your interpretation of the law regarding the difference between daytime and nighttime responses to the given situation.

  6. #20
    Member Array gixxersixxer's Avatar
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    I would like to ask you a question to your guns a blazin method.... I just started to carry yet been around firearms most my life and prior military.... But once I was sitting at my house and I'm the single father of two kids and I heard a loud thump at my door before I knew it it was opening and someone was coming through.... It took what seemed like minutes but was just a few seconds I'm sure before I could react... It was a young kid all bloody and about 6 others following him... He was the victim of a gang jumping him... He was wearing the wrong color shirt when the car of wanna be gang bangers drove by.... I lived in the country only about 14 houses in the area..... Now I admit me freeezing like I did was not good but just shooting and asking questions later would have been alot worse... To this boy his only thought was entering the closest house to what he thought was going to save his life ......

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Awesome writing Grady!

    Here are my thoughts, randomly:

    No place is ever safe: yes, until you make it safe by being armed and able to take care of yourself and your family.

    Do I have the right to use a gun to stop someone who is not a physical treat to me, in Michigan no, stuff is just stuff and insured. But the split second when it becomes more than a robbery all bets are off, don't bet your money on the BG in my house.

    Hubby and I both took the CPL class together, but I feel more serious about it than he seems to. He mentions occasionally that I spend too much time thinking about self-protection. I don't see it that way. I see it as anytime, anywhere and without warning may be the time I had better be prepared to take care of myself, and my family if they are here.
    Back in my single days I never looked to anyone else to defend me. My girlfriends certainly weren't capable of taking care of me, I am my own first line of defense when I am alone. And for me that's half of the day.
    Come Friday I see the Weapons Licencing Board for my county and pick up my CPL, hubby has his apointment next month. So that leaves me a the "great protector" outside of the home, and a role I willing except without hesitation.
    Maybe it will be odd for him to be protected by his wife, I hope that he's OK with that, but if something happens he has a cell phone and I'll have something a little stronger by my side.
    Being a "tomboy" for so many years has given me an inner strength as well as an outer strength and I'm confident I can and will use both if the need should ever arise.
    I've always been in code yellow, it almost seems like I was born that way. Even as a child I couldn't sit in a strange place with ny back to the door. I'm a watcher, always.
    In preparing to have a CPL, I've become even more of a watcher. I look at people differently, to see if I think that other person may have a weapon, legal or not and my awareness level goes up if I even suspect they might.
    He calls me obsessed, I call myself prepared.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxersixxer View Post
    I would like to ask you a question to your guns a blazin method.... I just started to carry yet been around firearms most my life and prior military.... But once I was sitting at my house and I'm the single father of two kids and I heard a loud thump at my door before I knew it it was opening and someone was coming through.... It took what seemed like minutes but was just a few seconds I'm sure before I could react... It was a young kid all bloody and about 6 others following him... He was the victim of a gang jumping him... He was wearing the wrong color shirt when the car of wanna be gang bangers drove by.... I lived in the country only about 14 houses in the area..... Now I admit me freeezing like I did was not good but just shooting and asking questions later would have been alot worse... To this boy his only thought was entering the closest house to what he thought was going to save his life ......

    I think a loud thump is a little different than your door getting kicked in. Had you been armed when your scenario took place, would you have felt bad about drawing your weapon? I most definately would not. This unfortunate "young kid" and his group would have been looking into my .45. They can try to explain themselves while "under the gun". You come into my home without an invitation, I will draw my weapon.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #23
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    GRADY +1. Excellent writeup and I thoroughly appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    In Virginia, and I suspect in most places, firing at a trespasser without having a factual reason to believe that you were facing an imminent threat of bodily injury is probably attempted murder. It is never dark in Virginia at 4 p.m., so that guy was not a "burglar", and you may not use deadly force merely to defend property rights.

    I'd have the gun out and be ready to shoot, of course, but no shooting until you've seen the guy and have a reason to believe he's dangerous to you or the wife.

    The rules change after dark, because you're entitled to a presumption that a burglar is willing to kill you.
    I'm not sure you understand the concept of DANGER here... Someone breaking into your home knowing full well someone is there (it isn't hard to figure out when someone is home) is and always will be an immediate threat.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  10. #24
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    Thanks for the post, and I understand the dilemma of home security

    I will offer a few thoughts

    First of all most home invasions are drug related, or happen in neighborhoods that have high crime rates. If you live in one of those neighborhoods move.

    Security starts at your property line; a dog, or movement sensor inside a fenced yard is a must.

    Exterior doors, should have long through dead bolt locks with steel doors, and reinforced frames that will take a couple hard hits before giving way

    You can plan out scenarios in your head all day long, but until you’re faced with an armed intruder you will never know what you will do

    People have a tendency to not react as well, as they did in training, which is contrary to what most people think; that they will rise to the occasion

  11. #25
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    Excellent commentary on the gradual and consistent disintergration of an alarmingly oblivious society. My wife is a city girl and is younger than me and she is part of a generation that believes everyone is good and you shouldn't expect the worst from people. Well I'm just the opposite. I was born in the country from part Choctaw, part Scotch- Irish roots and where I come from, you generally don't trust anybody until you've been around them long enough to develop a feel for where they're coming from and what they "want" from you. This mind-set might seem wrong to some people, but it has served me well in my 50 + years. Most of my adult life was spent on the road as a musician and I'm not talking about Willie Nelson's road but one alot harder and alot less lucratrive and believe me, my intuition has served me well in more than one juke- joint and biker bar. My SA is on all of the time and it requires absolutely no effort on my part. No matter if we're at the grocery store, movie theater or at home. I "notice people", "sounds" and other things like "the best possible exit route". I don't consider this a luxury or a chore, it just happens naturally. This trait has started to rub off on my wife though, I'm proud to say. After many incidents of my pointing out to her things like, which drunk at a party would end up in a fight with which other drunk. And, which "nice, humble, sad and harmless, homeless guy" who wants to help with our groceries, before we walk into the grocery store, will be heard cursing an elderly women for giving him only a quarter for his help, as we left. My philosophy is, everybody has an angle until they PROVE they don't. Cynical? Yes. Jaded? Sure. But it works for me.
    My wife is young, but smart and I'm happy to say that her eyes and ears are more open now and she has signed up for her handgun safety course. I'll rest "a little" easier when she's carrying because the world is not a safe place. It hasn't been for a long time. And tomorrow, sadly, will probably be worse than today.
    There's one other trait that I share with my ancestors...
    "I don't forget and some transgressions can never be forgiven". That's reason enough for me and mine, to be prepared.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" - Thomas Jefferson

    "The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth." - Stonewall Jackson

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    I think a loud thump is a little different than your door getting kicked in. Had you been armed when your scenario took place, would you have felt bad about drawing your weapon? I most definately would not. This unfortunate "young kid" and his group would have been looking into my .45. They can try to explain themselves while "under the gun". You come into my home without an invitation, I will draw my weapon.
    I see your point about the door and by no means am i questioning the op... just wondering if he really means he if i hear a door open then im shooting and asking questions later.. ive never been in bad parts of towns really, never had the need to be in them, but on the other hand i realize that any place, any where, any time something can happen, and i wanna be prepared.. thats why i joined the forum to learn from other peoples experiance, and knowlage

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxersixxer View Post
    I see your point about the door and by no means am i questioning the op... just wondering if he really means he if i hear a door open then im shooting and asking questions later.. ive never been in bad parts of towns really, never had the need to be in them, but on the other hand i realize that any place, any where, any time something can happen, and i wanna be prepared.. thats why i joined the forum to learn from other peoples experiance, and knowlage
    It is different to hear a door open, than to hear a door get kicked in/open. I hope we would all act/react differently to the sound of a door being forced/broken open than the normal sound of the door latch.
    This is a great place to learn and I appreciate reading others experiences aswell. I hope you find and learn evrything you're looking for. (I hope I do too!)
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxersixxer View Post
    I see your point about the door and by no means am i questioning the op... just wondering if he really means he if i hear a door open then im shooting and asking questions later.. ive never been in bad parts of towns really, never had the need to be in them, but on the other hand i realize that any place, any where, any time something can happen, and i wanna be prepared.. thats why i joined the forum to learn from other peoples experiance, and knowlage
    OK start with eliminating that "bad part of town"
    Bad parts of any town is where you are when crime rears it's ugly head. That could be downtown or in your own home.
    Think for a minute about the slums, and compare them to the affluent side of town. If you were going to break into a home for say some drug money, where would you think you'd find it?
    Change the line of thinking of 'parts of town' to "your own personal safety", wherever you may be.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxersixxer View Post
    I see your point about the door and by no means am i questioning the op... just wondering if he really means he if i hear a door open then im shooting and asking questions later..
    I can't speak for Grady, but from reading his posts over the last 18 months or so, I believe Grady to be a prudent person with a gun, and that he understands very well the gravity of taking another persons life.

    If I may speculate, I believe Grady's point is that he's blasting away at home intruders after his brain has processed the imminent threat to his life and safety. It really doesn't take more than a moment to realize you are under assault and realize that in your own home, you are automatically justified in using deadly force under our castle doctrine law.

    Grady lives in a castle doctrine state. The law states that anyone who forces entry in your home, you may consider that act alone to be a violent felony against you and are justified in using deadly force against the invader(s).

    When he talked about "blazing away with a hail of bullets", he explained it would be in response to his door being "kicked in" from a home invasion.

    Home Invasions are very deadly situations. The offenders who commit home invasions are dangerous in the extreme. Their goal is to overwhelm you quickly, to disorient you, and utilize extreme violence to control you and ensure that you comply. And most importantly... offer no resistance!

    The only way to have a chance to successfully deal with home invaders is to immediately counter attack using overwhelming violence of action and beat them down with force.

    I believe this is the whole reason castle doctrine laws came into existence in the first place. The overwhelming evidence of the violent nature of home invasions which are brutal and often times life ending for all the occupants of the home.

    Therefore the mere fact of a criminal forcing their way in allows the homeowner the opportunity by law... to assume anyone who breaks into an occupied dwelling intends to do grave bodily harm, and as such you are justified in utilizing deadly force to repel the intruders.

    JMHO YMMV Those who do not have a castle doctrine statue in their State, may have a totally different requirement in how they choose to respond to home invasions.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #30
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    Right on, Bark'n.

    Before the recent Castle Doctrine change, Missouri laws were not so in favor of the homeowner. According to (IMO) the preeminent self-defense lawyer in the state, Kevin Jamison, at one time if someone broke into your home, you were in legal trouble if you fired upon him/them after they had made entry to your home. You could fire as they were making entry because you feared for your life. However, once they made entry and it appeared to only be a robbery, you were not allowed to use deadly force (my loose translation of info from Mr. Jamison's book Missouri Weapons and Self-Defense Law).

    However, now the law has caught up with common sense, and if an intruder is inside a homeowner's house, the homeowner can legally defend himself.

    Thank you, Missouri legislators, for the recent common-sense changes in Missouri law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Home Invasions are very deadly situations. The offenders who commit home invasions are dangerous in the extreme. Their goal is to overwhelm you quickly, to disorient you, and utilize extreme violence to control you and ensure that you comply. And most importantly... offer no resistance!

    The only way to have a chance to successfully deal with home invaders is to immediately counter attack using overwhelming violence of action and beat them down with force.
    Absolutely, unless one chooses to trust his or her life to their mercy, which I will NOT.

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