Able vs Disabled

Able vs Disabled

This is a discussion on Able vs Disabled within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This past weekend at the edged weapon course in Indianapolis we were talking about some of the things that could likely lead up to and ...

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Thread: Able vs Disabled

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Able vs Disabled

    This past weekend at the edged weapon course in Indianapolis we were talking about some of the things that could likely lead up to and justify the use of deadly force. One thing that can add to the totality of circumstances is someone who is able-bodied attacking someone who is disabled. When we hear someone say disabled our minds eye can have a tendency view someone that has a visible handicap or debilitating injury. That may only be the case some of the time.



    In the beginning of all courses we have people fill out student contact sheets that include them listing injuries and allergies. Some of the most common issues include back, neck, shoulders, elbows and knees. The first two no only hinder mobility but aggravation can lead to central nervous system issues and possible paralysis. Aggravating a shoulder or elbow injury could severely hinder your ability to defend yourself or retain your weapons. Everyone needs to take an inventory of his or her physical condition and consider it in their overall personal protection plan.



    Consider a scenario that starts off with you defending yourself against an open hand attack during which you move backwards and fall over a curb. As you hit the ground your eyes slam shut, with your arms stretched out to break you fall you land. You feel pain shoot down your back and into your legs. Just as you realize that you have severely injured your back you open your eyes only to see your attacker rushing you. What began as a fistfight has now escalated to what could require you to use the deadly force of a gun or knife to save your life.



    Another common scenario is someone being punched or kicked repeatedly in the head. Any reasonable person would conclude that loosing consciousness might require the use of deadly force on your part to survive.


    Even an able bodied person can be disabled in fractions of a second.


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    jfl
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    I am getting a T-shirt made that quote Steinbeck:
    "Don't pick up a fight with an old guy; if he is too old to fight or run, he'll just kill you"

    I know, I know, it can and will be used against me in a court of law

    Back to the OP; if I have any doubt on the outcome of a situation I am going to end the threat using enough ammunition to make sure.

    When it is time to fight for survival, pondering legal issued will get you killed.
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I understand that. Do you have any other options to end it besides a firearm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Another common scenario is someone being punched or kicked repeatedly in the head. Any reasonable person would conclude that loosing consciousness might require the use of deadly force on your part to survive.


    Even an able bodied person can be disabled in fractions of a second.
    Absolutely. One punch can lead to unconsciousness or death.

    Concerning options to end a fight without using a firearm, I carry spray at all times, available to either hand. Options are good. Temporarily disabling a guy for 20 minutes due to spray is much cheaper and less of a legal issue than shooting him. Twenty minutes give me time to remove myself, call the police, or just about whatever I choose to do.

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    jfl
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I understand that. Do you have any other options to end it besides a firearm?
    A ball point through the throat; they are very sharp.
    A chair
    A bottle
    A finger in the eye
    Scissors
    Kitchen knife
    .......
    I could go on and on ...

    Think of it the other way around; how would you feel against TWO persons fighting for their lives, having nothing to loose, basically wild animals; we don't know that the intruder was armed with anything ?
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Grady, I doubt that there is a person on this forum beyond those with preexisting respiratory issues that has a worse reaction to OC than I do. Even in the academy they thought they were going to have to send me to the ER. That said, during my career I was sprayed by other police and cross contaminated dozens of times. A few were very bad situations. Not one of those times did it ever take me out of the fight. In fact the exact opposite happened. I fought harder because I had to end the situations and retain my gun without being able to see.

    Consider a situation where you deploy OC spray and suffer some blow back. Even worse if you wear contacts. You are wearing a pistol. You end up in a clinch with the bad guy and he feels the gun on your hip and the fight is on. Even if you are unwilling or unable to train for that it needs to be in the back of your mind as a possibility.

    Since this weekends class was in Indiana and all of the attendees carry a pistol we did Inverted Edge Tactics in combination with the pistol. We concentrated on the folder since unlike fixed blade you can carry a folder just about anywhere.- George

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    during my career I was sprayed by other police and cross contaminated dozens of times. A few were very bad situations. Not one of those times did it ever take me out of the fight. In fact the exact opposite happened. I fought harder because I had to end the situations and retain my gun without being able to see.
    That's interesting. I expected better results. I've gotten blowback twice and the results on me were significant. Maybe I need to inoculize myself with spray to learn to overcome the effects better.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Consider a situation where you deploy OC spray and suffer some blow back. Even worse if you wear contacts. You are wearing a pistol. You end up in a clinch with the bad guy and he feels the gun on your hip and the fight is on. Even if you are unwilling or unable to train for that it needs to be in the back of your mind as a possibility.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Since this weekends class was in Indiana and all of the attendees carry a pistol we did Inverted Edge Tactics in combination with the pistol. We concentrated on the folder since unlike fixed blade you can carry a folder just about anywhere.- George
    I do carry a fixed blade on one side and a folder on the other. If I felt the situation allowed, I'd still like to use the spray first. Once a knife comes into play, it can be lethal quickly. If the situation has digressed to that point, I'd rather use a gun from a distance. But perhaps in the situation you are discussing, the parties are up close already and you don't consider there to be time for a spray attempt.

    I know spray doesn't affect everyone the same, but judging on how it affected me, I had higher regards for it than you do. I guess if I ever choose to use it, I'd better have another option lined up real quick in case the spray doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    I am getting a T-shirt made that quote Steinbeck:
    "Don't pick up a fight with an old guy; if he is too old to fight or run, he'll just kill you"

    I know, I know, it can and will be used against me in a court of law

    Back to the OP; if I have any doubt on the outcome of a situation I am going to end the threat using enough ammunition to make sure.

    When it is time to fight for survival, pondering legal issued will get you killed.
    Might fine point here...I'm too old for a 'continued' fight.
    If I'm threatened, I'm not taking it as a joke.

    Stay armed...too old for a sustained fight...stay safe1
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Grady, I can tell from your posting record that the OC is only part of your overall plan and that makes sense.

    Training is worthless unless it fits into your personal system.

    If my vision is taken from me and I have someone on top of me I believe I will draw a knife instead of a pistol. Unless I can deploy the pistol and press it up against my attacker to shoot I will need to see them. If for some reason I drop the pistol on the deck I will be unable to see it to find it. The way I envision the defensive use of the knife is that you use the blade to cut your attacker off of you. And I feel comfortable doing that without being able to see.

    We do something called the One Gun Drill. You start on your back with a holstered blue gun. The scenario is just this, you are involved in an altercation and knocked to your back and now injured against an unarmed attacker. As you are on the ground your firearm becomes exposed and a fight ensues. Both your hand and the bag guys hands are on it. You need to decide whether you are trying to draw it or retain it and he is trying to get it out and use it on you. Remember, if you carry a pistol and are involved in a altercation their is a gun involved in the fight.- George

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Training is worthless unless it fits into your personal system.

    If my vision is taken from me and I have someone on top of me I believe I will draw a knife instead of a pistol. Unless I can deploy the pistol and press it up against my attacker to shoot I will need to see them. If for some reason I drop the pistol on the deck I will be unable to see it to find it. The way I envision the defensive use of the knife is that you use the blade to cut your attacker off of you. And I feel comfortable doing that without being able to see.
    Yes, that all makes sense. If I'm on the ground and fire upward, a miss or a through-and-through could send a bullet a long ways. I'd save that for a last-ditch effort.

    I sure hope the guy on top is unarmed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    We do something called the One Gun Drill. You start on your back with a holstered blue gun. The scenario is just this, you are involved in an altercation and knocked to your back and now injured against an unarmed attacker. As you are on the ground your firearm becomes exposed and a fight ensues. Both your hand and the bag guys hands are on it. You need to decide whether you are trying to draw it or retain it and he is trying to get it out and use it on you. Remember, if you carry a pistol and are involved in a altercation their is a gun involved in the fight.- George
    Well that sounds like a very active training session.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    He is always armed with his physical weapons and a huge impact weapon called the ground. You are also going to have to retain your gun and OC in addition to whatever else you carry. Of that stuff what will go flying when you hit the deck, what will you land on?

    The One Gun Drill takes about a minute or less and most people take a while to recover.

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    I'm pretty good with my hands, but I take blood thinners. That could be a huge liability to me in a physical altercation. I could bleed to death from the outside or internally(without even knowing), So I guess that makes me disabled.

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    I am what CO calls "a person of risk". I will avoid an alercation if possible. If attacked I will end it as swiftly as possible. If the attacker expires in the process so be it.

    Semper Fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    He is always armed with his physical weapons and a huge impact weapon called the ground. You are also going to have to retain your gun and OC in addition to whatever else you carry.
    All good points to keep in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Of that stuff what will go flying when you hit the deck
    That's thought provoking. The only thing that might be dislodged is my BUG, and only if I'm carrying it in a front pocket. Some holsters and pockets provide better slam-dunk retention than others. I consider that scenario possible if I allow myself to be slammed straight down on my back and possibly upended. But the rest of the stuff has firm retention even if upended.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    what will you land on?
    I should be okay here unless I land on my EDC. That is unlikely since I carry it either in a SmartCarry or in the appendix area. Carrying it any place on the side or rear of the waistline and I see the possibility of injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    The One Gun Drill takes about a minute or less and most people take a while to recover.
    That's what I expected: intense, but the effects felt long afterwards.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Considering your physical limitations as part of your over all protection/defense plan just makes sense. Being on blood thinners would definitely be something to note.

    I just saw where Stevo from Jack Ass injured his back on Dancing with the stars. He fell on his mike that was attached to the back of his pants. All the stupid stuff he does and this took him out. I have one students whose father was a cop in Miami and feel backwards on his cuffs which were carried in the small of his back and ended up fracturing his back.

    Right handed people have a tendency to fall more to their right side. If you are wearing a gun behind the hip this could cause a strong concentration of force on a small surface area increasing trauma. It is also harder to get your gun out.

    You need to think about retaining and deploying your gear while standing, seated, crouching, kneeling, on your hands and knees, on your stomach and on your back. The time to learn about it is not mid fight.- George

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