Women and drawing.. - Page 2

Women and drawing..

This is a discussion on Women and drawing.. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CR2008 Why would the woman NOT GET OUT OF THERE FIRST? Sounds like she would possibly end up in trouble... what if ...

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Thread: Women and drawing..

  1. #16
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    Why would the woman NOT GET OUT OF THERE FIRST? Sounds like she would possibly end up in trouble... what if the guy approching her actually had was either some guy who has hearing issues, or some bum that's mentally retarded or something?

    If I were in that woman's place, I would think about a way to MAKE DISTANCE before I use force... you have to be much more intelligent than what was stated above.

    Once I was leaving my college campus late one night and there was an asian lady walking in front of me, and after about a min she actually RAN FROM me... yes I felt upset because I was not doing anything just walking to my car, but WHAT IF she was legally armed but IRRESPONSIBLE and she had pulled a gun on me? What if I were a "special needs" person or someone who had hearing problems?

    Women and Men need to be RESPONSIBLE when carrying, this is not a game, it's real life and if you use deadly force you better have a damn good reason other than a "feeling."
    That must have felt awful.. well it is kinda creepy if someone was following me for a minute...then again, if it is on a long sidewalk then she shouldn't have been alarmed..but if she was walking through and between buildings and you were following, she was probably taught to run.. She took it out of context. (here at U of Houston, students get weekly/monthly emails about crimes. U of H is situated within several neighborhoods and dim-litted at night. Weird..

    My scenario is flawed due to lack of details. I should have known after reading through 50 pages of scenarios

    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    Another very good point... with all these illegal immigrants in this country I could easily envission this happening outside a hardware store... I see them outside gas stations as well.
    And outside home depot.. true hard workers..


  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    The laws are exactly the same for any potential defendant.

    The short version is that you can only draw when you would be justified in shooting (although some states do recognize that drawing to deter an attack before the lethal threat is upon you is not actually brandishing; you need to check on how this applies in your locality). Drawing without cause or to recklessly intimidate is the crime of brandishing.

    A credible lethal threat faces you if the potential attacker has the Ability to do you harm (e.g., a weapon), the Opportunity to do you harm (e.g., a guy with a knife who is close enough to use it on you---look up Tueller Drill for some info on this), and by his behavior or actions is putting you in Jeopardy because of that Ability and Opportunity. Together these are referred to as the A-O-J criteria. (Important example: every time you are at the shooting range, everybody around you has the Ability and Opportunity to do you harm, but you take no action against them because there is no Jeopardy.)

    The situation you are describing is covered by the legal concept of disparity of force, that is, the notion that an opponent or opponents may have the Ability and Opportunity to do you lethal harm even if no weapon is apparent.

    Now, the law (the case law, essentially) enshrines some examples of disparity of force: multiple attackers (though generally more than 2-to-1 for an obvious disparity of force to kick in), disabled victim and able-bodied attacker (also temporarily disabled, like the fight victim who ends up on the ground and then the attacker presses the attack), and a few others.

    To get back to your original question, there is no hard and fast legal precedent based on size and strength of an individual unarmed attacker. Generally a woman would get more lenience in court in applying lethal force against an overpowering, but this is not the same as saying you have the right to enforce a 15' exclusion zone around your person any time you wish.

    If anything because you may have a lower threshold for legally justifiable use of force, you need to be more vigilant about avoiding the situation that might make you need to use it.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

  3. #18
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    +1 kazzaerexys Good Post!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #19
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    My SA has to include a comfort zone, a line of aggression, and a threshold of jeaopardy. I expect the unexpected: by the time its time to draw, I'm lucky if I can. That's stone cold jeopardy.
    Please take my sig generically.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  5. #20
    Member Array MrsFosforos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    Therefore, here is the scenario.
    8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
    Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?
    You should consider checking out the TexasCHLForum. It is hosted by Charles Cotton, who is on the board of the NRA and vice-chairman of the TSRA. He's in the Houston area and periodically conducts seminars on the use and legal consequences of using deadly force. If you ever get the chance it would be worth a few hours of your time to go and spend the evening with him. He speaks specifically about some of the issues you've raised such as the disparity of size arguements and questions related duty to retreat and brandishing. He clarifies what the law actually says and dispels some of the myths and old wive's tales you may have heard before.

    He speaks in every day language and he lays it out without all the legal-eze. When it comes to asking questions about the law as it's practiced in Texas, you're coming as close as it gets to going to the horse's mouth. He's been involved in the Texas legistations for 20+ years.

    He also recently posted that he will be teaching a lady's only CHL course in the near future at the PSC range in Pearland that still had a few spots open if your girlfriend might be interested.

  6. #21
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsFosforos View Post
    You should consider checking out the TexasCHLForum. It is hosted by Charles Cotton, who is on the board of the NRA and vice-chairman of the TSRA. He's in the Houston area and periodically conducts seminars on the use and legal consequences of using deadly force. If you ever get the chance it would be worth a few hours of your time to go and spend the evening with him. He speaks specifically about some of the issues you've raised such as the disparity of size arguements and questions related duty to retreat and brandishing. He clarifies what the law actually says and dispels some of the myths and old wive's tales you may have heard before.

    He speaks in every day language and he lays it out without all the legal-eze. When it comes to asking questions about the law as it's practiced in Texas, you're coming as close as it gets to going to the horse's mouth. He's been involved in the Texas legistations for 20+ years.

    He also recently posted that he will be teaching a lady's only CHL course in the near future at the PSC range in Pearland that still had a few spots open if your girlfriend might be interested.
    Link to said post about psc CHL lady's only?

  7. #22
    Member Array MrsFosforos's Avatar
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    Info from TexasCHLForum.com:
    Ladies Only CHL Class - Friendswood

    Location
    PSC Range in Friendswood, Tx
    http://www.psc-range.com/ -check out their site in case she's interested in NRA courses -- Basic Pistol & Personal Protection in the Home; and I noticed a Woman's Program held is monthly -- for women BY women. I also saw the Deadly Force Seminar I mentioned before is scheduled. It is scheduled & presented conjunction with the CHL course offered, however that section of the lecture is also usually offered to participants who are interested in the seminar only. Contact information is listed on the site for questions.

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