Women and drawing..

Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
Therefore, here is the scenario.
8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?

I think the guy just wanted to give the poor 85lb woman a couple of cheese burgers.:rolleyes:
To draw every time a man approaches will end you in jail quite fast. Unless the man was threatening in some other way that reasonable people would become alarmed. Wearing a ski mask at a Houston gas station for an example. It's best to keep your distance, keep concealed and be sure there is a real threat to your safety before you consider drawing.

If he get with in the 15 feet he got to close.

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.

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You are making some big assumptions that are not necessarily true. The laws are NOT much more lenient for women.

The use of deadly force apply the same for women as it does for men.

Which means... Deadly force is justified only when you are in Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.

What constitutes Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury? Well, the attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. Must have the opportunity to kill or cripple you. And just as important as the other two, must have placed you in jeopardy, by deeds or actions, such as verbally threatening you and acting out in a manner which places you in jeopardy.


Let's look at your scenario

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'

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So far, so good! You've mad a prudent request for him not to approach. But you are also inviting him to continue an interaction with you by asking him a question. "what do you want?"

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending.

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Totally immaterial. It is what it is! You have with you; what you have with you. Which is a gun.

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws.

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(Ok, we are playing your scenario as it is presented)

So, He is not armed! He is not brandishing a weapon! He is not acting bizarre or thrashing his arms in a menacing way! He has not made any demands! He has not threatened verbally or otherwise!

Why are you drawing your gun at this point? There are any number of legitimate reasons the man continued to approach you. He may be deaf or hard of hearing. He may not understand English. He may have an emergency situation he is requesting your help with and just didn't pay attention to what you said initially.

Your fear has to be rational and reasonable to other people who would be placed in the same situation in order for you to be justified in drawing down on someone. And in this case, he has done nothing threatening, bizarre or produce a weapon to place you in jeopardy.

All he has done was approach you after you asked him to stop. However, you did ask him what he wanted? Maybe he wants to show you something he intends to try and sell you?

Remember, your fear and reason for drawing your weapon has to be reasonable and rational.

If you have an irrational fear of every man who approaches you because you believe your small size makes every man want to hurt you isn't going to be considered rational or justifiable. He is going to have to do something to clearly place you in jeopardy!

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

Would it be OK?

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Probably not!

There is a component in the use of deadly force law called "disparity of force" which does allow some leeway in excusing deadly force for certain situations which otherwise would not apply to some people.

As an example, a disparity of force situation may allow for a petite woman of small size to use deadly force to repel an unarmed attacker of large size even if he did not possess any weapons of his own.

But again, he has to be attacking you, or threatening to attack or harm you. The components of using deadly force still have to be present. A person still has to be placing you in jeopardy of killing or crippling you.

I would recommend taking a class which teaches "use of force" issues for further clarification.

Stay Safe and feel free to ask more. Lots of people will also chime in with their opinions.

Be aware that my advice here is also only my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HITCH KING

If he get with in the 15 feet he got to close.

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Should she have retreat? Should she have yelled from 25ft away to back off...not knowing his intentions? You can't stop everybody from getting "too close" now can we?

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Originally Posted by Bark'n

Which means... Deadly force is justified only when you are in Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.

What constitutes Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury? Well, the attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. Must have the opportunity to kill or cripple you. And just as important as the other two, must have placed you in jeopardy, by deeds or actions, such as verbally threatening you and acting out in a manner which places you in jeopardy.

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By the time the BG attacks the woman, she may not be able to draw... She shouldn't have to wait to be attacked but I do understand that she would be 'jumping the gun' to the idea that this person is a BG.
This question was brought up because of the recent hike in carjacking. The last few carjackings here in my area, was that the BG would walk up to a person at a drive through, convenient store, or walmart and pull out there weapon right when they are next to the person while the victim opens her driver side door.

While I'm not familiar with Texas law regarding brandishing, here in Michigan where I'm from that is brandishing and last time I checked there was no exception by gender.
If I am approached by a stranger while I'm pumping gas and somebody gets inside my comfort zone, they will be told to stop. No other questions asked, I don't care what he "wants". Stop and Back Off are all he will get from me. If he isn't attempting to attack me or showing a deadly weapon, I have no right to draw my weapon. Men in Michigan are expected to follow the same law I am.
Does the state of Texas have a sexist law system, that grants different rights by gender, or are you just making a rude assumption?

There are many things to consider, at least one of which should have taken place prior to the stop. Not knowing whether this particular gas station is in a "safe/dangerous" part of town, whether or not it's well-lit and populated, she should ask herself whether or not it was necessary to get gas then. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe a little prior planning with the fuel gauge could have precluded the need for the stop, maybe not. Bottom line there, the first thing to do is make every attempt to avoid potentially dangerous situations.

Now, for the stop itself. Drawing a weapon, under the circumstances you described, would have this lady potentially presenting her weapon numerous times throughout her month, let alone her life. It should/must be a last resort, as opposed to a "pull it out whenever I'm slightly nervous" kind of thing. Just my opinions.

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Originally Posted by Rugergirl

While I'm not familiar with Texas law regarding brandishing, here in Michigan where I'm from that is brandishing and last time I checked there was no exception by gender.
If I am approached by a stranger while I'm pumping gas and somebody gets inside my comfort zone, they will be told to stop. No other questions asked, I don't care what he "wants". Stop and Back Off are all he will get from me. If he isn't attempting to attack me or showing a deadly weapon, I have no right to draw my weapon. Men in Michigan are expected to follow the same law I am.
Does the state of Texas have a sexist law system, that grants different rights by gender, or are you just making a rude assumption?

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I'm not trying to come off as a sexist. I'm looking at disparity of force. What would you do if that person did not stop and keeps penetrating your comfort zone? Wait to see what he wants? (I guess categorizing him based on his clothing, attitude..etc would probably answer this question)

Reading back on the post, there are much more variables to consider.

I am certainly not saying a person has to wait to be attacked!

I am analyzing the scenario as it was presented!

There were certainly other things the woman could have and should have done prior to drawing a gun in that scenario!

Rugergirl for example has some very good points.

You have to remember that as a law abiding citizen, we have to conform with the law. Just because the bad guys do not play be the rules does not excuse us from being lawful.

The person in your scenario should have been making additional and forceful commands and doing other things which would help her determine the mans intentions.

But in the scenario described, the woman did none of that. She merely said "stop" one time.... and then continued to interact with the man by asking him questions, in all practicality, inviting him to further interact with her.

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

I'm not trying to come off as a sexist. I'm looking at disparity of force. What would you do if that person did not stop and keeps penetrating your comfort zone? Wait to see what he wants? (I guess categorizing him based on his clothing, attitude..etc would probably answer this question)

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I am a people watcher, always have been and I have a pretty good sense of who I don't want any sort of encounter with.
Call it profiling or just good self awareness but it I am approached by someone I don't feel comfortable around I want him to stop. I don't care what he wants, directions, a dime or anything else he can go get it elsewhere.
I don't make a habit of gassing up in an area I don't feel comfortable in or after dark, part of my own SA, but I try not to put myself into a situation like that to begin with. I always keep my car keys within reach if I feel threatened I can set off the alarm or jump in and lock the doors and call police.
But even if he is larger than I am I'm not going to expose or draw on him, unless I am definately being threatened. I don't carry to scare people, I carry to defend myself when needed.

You really should research disparity of force in a much greater depth than just asking here on an online forum.

Disparity of force is a topic that is very detailed and broad and has lots of specific nuances, definitions, details and components that must be understood by the individual. You have to see the big picture and know what applies to your situation and how it applies to various scenarios you may encounter.

Again, seek out information that is definitive rather than casual conversation. It's very easy to get yourself into trouble trying to rely on disparity of force as a defense in a given situation when it may not apply.

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
Therefore, here is the scenario.
8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?

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No conversation with the dirtbag, just stop...get back!
My wife would already have her hand on a weapon...if the dirtbag continues after a warning, the sidearm will emphasize the importance of obeying the original command.
What happens after that depends upon the 'intruder'...:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jkvan87

Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
Therefore, here is the scenario.
8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?

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Why would the woman NOT GET OUT OF THERE FIRST? Sounds like she would possibly end up in trouble... what if the guy approching her actually had was either some guy who has hearing issues, or some bum that's mentally retarded or something?

If I were in that woman's place, I would think about a way to MAKE DISTANCE before I use force... you have to be much more intelligent than what was stated above.

Once I was leaving my college campus late one night and there was an asian lady walking in front of me, and after about a min she actually RAN FROM me... yes I felt upset because I was not doing anything just walking to my car, but WHAT IF she was legally armed but IRRESPONSIBLE and she had pulled a gun on me? What if I were a "special needs" person or someone who had hearing problems?

Women and Men need to be RESPONSIBLE when carrying, this is not a game, it's real life and if you use deadly force you better have a damn good reason other than a "feeling."

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Originally Posted by Bark'n

He may not understand English. He may have an emergency situation he is requesting your help with and just didn't pay attention to what you said initially.

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Another very good point... with all these illegal immigrants in this country I could easily envission this happening outside a hardware store... I see them outside gas stations as well.