Women and drawing..

This is a discussion on Women and drawing.. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Women and drawing..

  1. #1
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    65

    Women and drawing..

    Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    Therefore, here is the scenario.
    8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
    Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ma
    Posts
    2,366
    I think the guy just wanted to give the poor 85lb woman a couple of cheese burgers.
    To draw every time a man approaches will end you in jail quite fast. Unless the man was threatening in some other way that reasonable people would become alarmed. Wearing a ski mask at a Houston gas station for an example. It's best to keep your distance, keep concealed and be sure there is a real threat to your safety before you consider drawing.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nassau, NY(Long Island)
    Posts
    2,855
    If he get with in the 15 feet he got to close.

  5. #4
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    You are making some big assumptions that are not necessarily true. The laws are NOT much more lenient for women.

    The use of deadly force apply the same for women as it does for men.

    Which means... Deadly force is justified only when you are in Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.

    What constitutes Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury? Well, the attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. Must have the opportunity to kill or cripple you. And just as important as the other two, must have placed you in jeopardy, by deeds or actions, such as verbally threatening you and acting out in a manner which places you in jeopardy.


    Let's look at your scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'
    So far, so good! You've mad a prudent request for him not to approach. But you are also inviting him to continue an interaction with you by asking him a question. "what do you want?"

    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending.
    Totally immaterial. It is what it is! You have with you; what you have with you. Which is a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws.
    (Ok, we are playing your scenario as it is presented)

    So, He is not armed! He is not brandishing a weapon! He is not acting bizarre or thrashing his arms in a menacing way! He has not made any demands! He has not threatened verbally or otherwise!

    Why are you drawing your gun at this point? There are any number of legitimate reasons the man continued to approach you. He may be deaf or hard of hearing. He may not understand English. He may have an emergency situation he is requesting your help with and just didn't pay attention to what you said initially.

    Your fear has to be rational and reasonable to other people who would be placed in the same situation in order for you to be justified in drawing down on someone. And in this case, he has done nothing threatening, bizarre or produce a weapon to place you in jeopardy.

    All he has done was approach you after you asked him to stop. However, you did ask him what he wanted? Maybe he wants to show you something he intends to try and sell you?

    Remember, your fear and reason for drawing your weapon has to be reasonable and rational.

    If you have an irrational fear of every man who approaches you because you believe your small size makes every man want to hurt you isn't going to be considered rational or justifiable. He is going to have to do something to clearly place you in jeopardy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    Would it be OK?
    Probably not!

    There is a component in the use of deadly force law called "disparity of force" which does allow some leeway in excusing deadly force for certain situations which otherwise would not apply to some people.

    As an example, a disparity of force situation may allow for a petite woman of small size to use deadly force to repel an unarmed attacker of large size even if he did not possess any weapons of his own.

    But again, he has to be attacking you, or threatening to attack or harm you. The components of using deadly force still have to be present. A person still has to be placing you in jeopardy of killing or crippling you.

    I would recommend taking a class which teaches "use of force" issues for further clarification.

    Stay Safe and feel free to ask more. Lots of people will also chime in with their opinions.

    Be aware that my advice here is also only my opinion.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #5
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by HITCH KING View Post
    If he get with in the 15 feet he got to close.
    Should she have retreat? Should she have yelled from 25ft away to back off...not knowing his intentions? You can't stop everybody from getting "too close" now can we?

  7. #6
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post

    Which means... Deadly force is justified only when you are in Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.

    What constitutes Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury? Well, the attacker must possess the ability to kill or cripple you. Must have the opportunity to kill or cripple you. And just as important as the other two, must have placed you in jeopardy, by deeds or actions, such as verbally threatening you and acting out in a manner which places you in jeopardy.

    By the time the BG attacks the woman, she may not be able to draw... She shouldn't have to wait to be attacked but I do understand that she would be 'jumping the gun' to the idea that this person is a BG.
    This question was brought up because of the recent hike in carjacking. The last few carjackings here in my area, was that the BG would walk up to a person at a drive through, convenient store, or walmart and pull out there weapon right when they are next to the person while the victim opens her driver side door.

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,954
    While I'm not familiar with Texas law regarding brandishing, here in Michigan where I'm from that is brandishing and last time I checked there was no exception by gender.
    If I am approached by a stranger while I'm pumping gas and somebody gets inside my comfort zone, they will be told to stop. No other questions asked, I don't care what he "wants". Stop and Back Off are all he will get from me. If he isn't attempting to attack me or showing a deadly weapon, I have no right to draw my weapon. Men in Michigan are expected to follow the same law I am.
    Does the state of Texas have a sexist law system, that grants different rights by gender, or are you just making a rude assumption?
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  9. #8
    Member Array Jumper2501's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    434
    There are many things to consider, at least one of which should have taken place prior to the stop. Not knowing whether this particular gas station is in a "safe/dangerous" part of town, whether or not it's well-lit and populated, she should ask herself whether or not it was necessary to get gas then. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe a little prior planning with the fuel gauge could have precluded the need for the stop, maybe not. Bottom line there, the first thing to do is make every attempt to avoid potentially dangerous situations.

    Now, for the stop itself. Drawing a weapon, under the circumstances you described, would have this lady potentially presenting her weapon numerous times throughout her month, let alone her life. It should/must be a last resort, as opposed to a "pull it out whenever I'm slightly nervous" kind of thing. Just my opinions.
    NRA member
    GrassRoots GunRights SC member
    Walther PPS .40 / KelTec P3AT

  10. #9
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Rugergirl View Post
    While I'm not familiar with Texas law regarding brandishing, here in Michigan where I'm from that is brandishing and last time I checked there was no exception by gender.
    If I am approached by a stranger while I'm pumping gas and somebody gets inside my comfort zone, they will be told to stop. No other questions asked, I don't care what he "wants". Stop and Back Off are all he will get from me. If he isn't attempting to attack me or showing a deadly weapon, I have no right to draw my weapon. Men in Michigan are expected to follow the same law I am.
    Does the state of Texas have a sexist law system, that grants different rights by gender, or are you just making a rude assumption?
    I'm not trying to come off as a sexist. I'm looking at disparity of force. What would you do if that person did not stop and keeps penetrating your comfort zone? Wait to see what he wants? (I guess categorizing him based on his clothing, attitude..etc would probably answer this question)

  11. #10
    Member Array jkvan87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    65
    Reading back on the post, there are much more variables to consider.

  12. #11
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    I am certainly not saying a person has to wait to be attacked!

    I am analyzing the scenario as it was presented!

    There were certainly other things the woman could have and should have done prior to drawing a gun in that scenario!

    Rugergirl for example has some very good points.

    You have to remember that as a law abiding citizen, we have to conform with the law. Just because the bad guys do not play be the rules does not excuse us from being lawful.

    The person in your scenario should have been making additional and forceful commands and doing other things which would help her determine the mans intentions.

    But in the scenario described, the woman did none of that. She merely said "stop" one time.... and then continued to interact with the man by asking him questions, in all practicality, inviting him to further interact with her.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    I'm not trying to come off as a sexist. I'm looking at disparity of force. What would you do if that person did not stop and keeps penetrating your comfort zone? Wait to see what he wants? (I guess categorizing him based on his clothing, attitude..etc would probably answer this question)
    I am a people watcher, always have been and I have a pretty good sense of who I don't want any sort of encounter with.
    Call it profiling or just good self awareness but it I am approached by someone I don't feel comfortable around I want him to stop. I don't care what he wants, directions, a dime or anything else he can go get it elsewhere.
    I don't make a habit of gassing up in an area I don't feel comfortable in or after dark, part of my own SA, but I try not to put myself into a situation like that to begin with. I always keep my car keys within reach if I feel threatened I can set off the alarm or jump in and lock the doors and call police.
    But even if he is larger than I am I'm not going to expose or draw on him, unless I am definately being threatened. I don't carry to scare people, I carry to defend myself when needed.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  14. #13
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    You really should research disparity of force in a much greater depth than just asking here on an online forum.

    Disparity of force is a topic that is very detailed and broad and has lots of specific nuances, definitions, details and components that must be understood by the individual. You have to see the big picture and know what applies to your situation and how it applies to various scenarios you may encounter.

    Again, seek out information that is definitive rather than casual conversation. It's very easy to get yourself into trouble trying to rely on disparity of force as a defense in a given situation when it may not apply.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #14
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,682
    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    Therefore, here is the scenario.
    8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
    Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?
    No conversation with the dirtbag, just stop...get back!
    My wife would already have her hand on a weapon...if the dirtbag continues after a warning, the sidearm will emphasize the importance of obeying the original command.
    What happens after that depends upon the 'intruder'...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by jkvan87 View Post
    Most women are significantly smaller than BG's, therefore, they can almost always draw if a man is approaching them even when warned, right? I'm sure the laws are much more lenient for women in terms of defending themselves.
    Therefore, here is the scenario.
    8:30pm, just as the sun disappears: A woman (24yr old, 85lb, 4'9") is getting gas and a man approaches near and she says, in a firm voice, ' stop, what do you want?'. She doesn't have OC with her due to it falling out of her dress during the movie she was attending. He gets closer and she feels worried. He gets about 15ft and she draws. Would it be OK?
    Now...what if it was a man and he drew.. brandishing?
    Why would the woman NOT GET OUT OF THERE FIRST? Sounds like she would possibly end up in trouble... what if the guy approching her actually had was either some guy who has hearing issues, or some bum that's mentally retarded or something?

    If I were in that woman's place, I would think about a way to MAKE DISTANCE before I use force... you have to be much more intelligent than what was stated above.

    Once I was leaving my college campus late one night and there was an asian lady walking in front of me, and after about a min she actually RAN FROM me... yes I felt upset because I was not doing anything just walking to my car, but WHAT IF she was legally armed but IRRESPONSIBLE and she had pulled a gun on me? What if I were a "special needs" person or someone who had hearing problems?

    Women and Men need to be RESPONSIBLE when carrying, this is not a game, it's real life and if you use deadly force you better have a damn good reason other than a "feeling."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    He may not understand English. He may have an emergency situation he is requesting your help with and just didn't pay attention to what you said initially.
    Another very good point... with all these illegal immigrants in this country I could easily envission this happening outside a hardware store... I see them outside gas stations as well.
    http://www.bloombergfightbackfund.com/
    Sig P220R/Sig P239 (9mm)/ S&W 640/ Ruger Single Six Hunter (.22LR/Mag)/ CZ 452 Varmint .22LR/ Lee Enfield No4 MK2 sporterized dated 1959/ Mosin Nagant M90-30 dated 1942/

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Drawing While Driving
    By roalho in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: October 24th, 2009, 07:39 PM
  2. Drawing on a gun, thoughts ...
    By jfl in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: March 9th, 2009, 12:34 AM
  3. Drawing at the Range
    By rdmjazz in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: December 20th, 2008, 08:05 PM
  4. Drawing and not shooting
    By Pro2A in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: February 6th, 2008, 10:44 PM
  5. Drawing
    By KahrGirl in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 10th, 2007, 07:48 PM