Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!!

This is a discussion on Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 I would not have tried to confront the individuals, but rather be a good witness only. While I understand and fully ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I would not have tried to confront the individuals, but rather be a good witness only. While I understand and fully respect what you were trying to do...this is a crazy world and we cannot afford to be LEO's...we are not LEO's. I only say that because one misfortune, one misunderstanding of the situation could cause you BIG problems.

    That said, we all must make decisions based upon the situation we find ourselves in...I wasn't there, who knows, I may have done the same thing.

    While FL affords some protections when truly using SD, looking for a place to 'confront' is completely different then being 'confronted'...OMHO!

    Stay armed...know the situation before wandering in...stay safe!
    Florida law allows for the use of weapons and firearms, even deadly force, to prevent a felonious assault which is exactly what this could have been. All the police officers that were there said we did the right thing and did it legally. We sell a lot of hunting stuff including guns. A judge was in the store today buying some equipment for upcoming turkey season. He said we were completely within the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Wow, gunstore commandos...
    You aren't officers and you have no right to tell somebody to 'step away from their vehicle' or give any of the other commands you gave, especially at gun point.

    I find it hard to believe you didn't end up in jail.
    No, we are not officers, but we are American citizens. Citizens arrest still exists if you have even ever heard of it. We did not attempt to arrest this man. We followed guidelines such as make it loud and clear the person should STOP what they are doing. Do we have less right to tell the person to get away from the car than we do to tell someone to back up away from me? His reaching into the vehicle is a dangerous move and could possibly be a direct offense to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I tend to agree...I wonder what you would have done if he continued to grab the girl and/or get in the vehicle and drive off. At least if you were in your truck, you could of followed. Who was watching the store and/or truck while this was all on-going (re: "were about to lock the door")...I'm assuming the truck was unlocked as well.
    Finally, I never draw, then leave the gun at my side...do you practice that way? I might put my hand on the butt of the gun...but never draw. Do you see LEOs doing that? If one draws...they aim.

    Rick
    Truck was right by the front door. Truck was locked but store was still unlocked. No guns left inside. All were in the truck. There is no way we would have let him beat her or continue to choke her. No way we would have allowed him to drive off with her in the van.

    I disagree on the draw. Yes, I have seen many cops draw in anticipation of something and never aim or point the gun. There is no written rule that just because you draw you have to aim and shoot. Drawing just gets you more ready.

    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    I have to agree with Kerbouchard, even if they were a threat to the woman at first you removed her from that threat and kept acting as a police officer would have. You have no right to detain anyone in that set of circumstances, lying or not she stated she was in no danger. You are very lucky to step in the middle of a domestic dispute and walk away unscathed. Call 911 and be a good witness. Police officers themselves are very cautious about domestics disputes and that may be an understatement as they are one of the most volatile situations they see.
    911 was called within 10 to 15 seconds from the point we witnessed the man choking her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rcher View Post
    I think you both should consider yourselves lucky that you arent facing formal charges.

    I would have taken distant cover, called 911 and been a good witness. Never would I have "cleared leather" in this situation. I dont think that we have a responsibility to protect the public, thats the job for LE. Your gun is to protect you and I dont see where you were in any "iminent" danger.
    Wow, I know where you stand. Glad to know you are the enemy. Be assured that if I ever need to save your ass, I wont!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The road to h is paved with good intentions. So is the road to jail.

    Charges could have been anything from unlawful display, assault with a deadly weapon, impersonating, kidnapping, and that is before the shots were fired.

    You guys did the right thing morally. You had good intentions. But you are lucky as heck that these two were already known to the police for their domestic disputes.
    There was no unlawful display. How do you get that? No one was kidnapped. No one impersonated anyone especially a LEO. No shots were fired.

    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    Okay, from the comfort of my computer chair with coffee in hand, I have a different perspective.
    As I read your account, I saw a situation that looked like these two at the van were drawing you away from a truckload of guns and keeping you distracted while the "other accomplices" would try to get to the guns.
    You could have found yourselves out in the open between armed people at the van, and armed people at your truckload of guns, and in one heap of trouble.
    The store had been robbed recently?
    And now you have packaged the guns up nicely for transportation and are drawn away and surrounded.

    They could have been a Mexican Drug Cell (I don't know how to spell "narco-terrorist") looking for new "tools" for their trade.

    I could be off, but when handling a large number of guns, I'd be thinking of how there are a few elements in this world that would do just about anything to get those guns from you.

    My 2 cents.
    Could have been, but it wasn't. That's for another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    I like many others have to agree with Kerbouchard. You have no authority to order anyone away from their vehicle. You drew your weapons on someone because they didn't follow your commands. I think your lucky to be able to relay this incident to us, and aren't instead sitting behind bars.
    You/we absolutely have the right to command someone to do whatever it takes to assure your safety. He was on OUR property remember? He was acting in a suspicious manner. All he had to do was stay out of his van and chill out.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    +1 Exact same thing I was thinking.
    See above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30SF View Post
    Well I am glad it worked out for you guys but I think you should have called 911 and let them handle it. Follow him with 911 on the line if you want to go the extra mile. Here is a senario for you: Lets say the guy was a off duty or CC guy and he was trying to get his drunk/drugged out kid back home. You guys show up armed, he fears for HIS life a gun fight takes place.......You see this is heading no where good. My .02
    Off duty puts their children in choke holds?? Where you from, Chicago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    From these statements, I can't tell if you are truly worried about the guy coming back or if you are hoping to get another crack at him.
    You've never ever said anything like this in your entire life? BS i say. Just trying to make a little light of a situation that was not really fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Well, I'm not well-seasoned or anything, but as a recent sheep, I'll say this: Reading your account, I can see where your heart was in the right place, trying to save a potential kidnapping victim. And at least nobody got hurt. As for your actions, I don't know that it was the best way to go about it, things may have ended differently...and your safety is paramount to anything else. I was always told not to draw unless you plan to shoot, not to shoot unless you plan on emptying your weapon, and unless you plan on destroying whatever it is you're aiming at. It worries me because it could have only taken a milisecond for things to go from "tense" to "lethal" and "jail time." But I'm a really bad armchair quarterback, so YMMV.
    I don't always place my safety paramount. If I did, I wouldn't have been in the military. I placed my safety second to every one in America. I would place my saftey second to any one in America if they were in danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I can't help but notice some of the scathing comments here, but some seem to have missed that whole beginning part about the choke hold. Being put in that situation myself, I probably would have done much the same thing, sans the orders to get out of the vehicle. My first concern would have been the potential victim, their status, and getting them away safely after 911 was already called. The aggressor can go about his business as far as I'm concerned as long as it doesn't involved continued physical harm to the victim.

    To those who always insist on doing nothing...better be damn sure it's not my wife, sister, mother, etc... that you let some scum of the earth have their way with, because I don't want to go to prison for ripping your arms out of their sockets and feeding them to you for standing by and doing nothing!
    Thank you! Oh, we didn't order him out of the vehicle. He wasn't in the vehicle. We told him to stay away from the vehicle as he kept circling around it and reaching inside it for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I didn't miss it...the scathing comments were directed toward the manner in which it was handled and the tone of how it was related.

    Helping somebody out is one thing...going on patrol, acting like an officer, giving unlawful orders and then drawing a weapon when they are not complied with is completely different.

    Perhaps the comment about 'maybe he'll have another chance at this guy' or the fact that they commanded the guy away from his vehicle through me off, but I still think the OP and his partner should have ended up in jail.

    As always, YMMV.
    Helping someone isn't sitting by while they are forced in to a car. IN the ten or fifteen minutes it took for 911 to get the police on scene, he could have been in the next state with a child that belongs to someone else, maybe YOUR child. Get off your high horse. Citizens are often just as capable as cops, some maybe more so. Matter of fact, of the eight or nine cops there, they sat him in his vehicle and turned their backs to him. They were out in the open, no cover and no one watching the man. Sorry to disappoint, but I am not in jail and I wont be.

    Quote Originally Posted by HITCH KING View Post
    Here is my .02, I think you did the right thing. I would have stepped up also. The problem is to many people talk about stepping up but don't. Yes It could have been a trick to get you away from the van. Yes it could have been a trick to case the store. But next time if you are standing next to a vehicle loaded with long guns, I think you you should have remained covered and taken out of of the long guns to help with the situation. Any thought about having 1 loaded long gun while loading up the unloaded ones. CCW is great but nothing beats a long gun.
    Yes, we usually have a loaded shotty but this time we didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I agree with the many that have opined the OP was very much out of line. We are not LE. We cannot command citizens to do our bidding at gunpoint. In Arizona, that action would rightly be considered aggravated assault, irrespective of whether the gun was pointed a the citizen.

    This is exactly the type of behavior that is used as evidence by the antis to demonstrate their point. We ridicule the antis, but this action should not be condoned by responsible gun owners.
    Wow, from someone with a name of "Self Defense"? You mean you wouldn't "command" someone to get away from you? I guess that's illegal? Dear god, how many times have I heard how horribly slow LEO can be to actually respond. How many times have I heard that cops can get overwhelmed and cannot respond to events they are needed at? What does it take to be an upstanding citizen? Sit by and watch other get assaulted? Is that the way you guys are gonna act if the government DOES take over and marshal law is in effect? Yo ugonna say "screw my neighbor, as long as I am safe!" ???
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    I can't 2nd guess what the OP did. I hope that if my wife was in the same situation and I wasn't around, that someone would do the same thing.

    Tactically, I think you also did the correct thing: You separated yourselves from each other yet still kept safe lines of fire [towards the subject(s).

    The fact that you were not arrested says you did the right thing.
    Thank you for a little support!
    You can guarantee if it were your wife or children, and I had any way to stop it, I would. I can only hope, even though it looks pretty grim now, that there are enough Americans with enough fortitude to do a good deed for another in danger. We may all need this very soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    Did the police ask the large man what he was doing in the vicinity [of the gun shop]? Maybe they were the ones who pulled the original break-in.
    I am sure they did ask him that but I wasn't close enough to their little "huddle" to hear it. It was later on, when the police interviewed myself and my boss, that they told us the woman had left the house and walked basically straight up the back roads to where the man intercepted her, which was out in front of our store.
    The prior break-in was a large rock thrown through front door glass. They opened an empty cash register and left. It was a break in for money and there was none. That robber also did five other jobs around town that night and has been arrested.



    I posted this for in formation, curiosity and critique and I have gotten it. Just not what I expected or how. Instead of telling me what we did right or wrong, we have been criminalized. So much for going through channels to legally and lawfully carry and/or use a defense weapon. I guess if you aren't pumping them full of lead then you shouldn't carry a gun?
    So much for stepping up and acting like an American.

    I honestly think, that before tonight is over, I will ask Bumper to cancel my account here. I cannot believe how many here would have just stood by and waited on 911. I also hope their family are never in this situation, waiting on their father/husband to call 911 for their sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by PNUT View Post
    Yes, I'm not ashamed of it, in fact he tried to hit me first. Maybe I should have posted that. I didn't beat him out of anger or revenge,I hit him once,he started to get up and I thought that he was going to get a weapon,pretty sure he was ,so I kicked him in the face. Once he was no longer a danger I stopped.
    I don't think that the OP was right to draw a weapon but he did do the right thing by getting involved. We all have loved ones and I wouldn't let someone hurt yours, I would want the same from my fellow citizens if it was my wife,kid or other loved one in a situation.
    Agreed. Its ok to shoot someone with 19 rounds of lead but its not ok to beat the crap outta someone that is a direct threat? Shoot till threat stops, beat till threat stops. They both bleed either way. What makes a difference how they came to bleed?

    On weapons drawing, why not draw and be ready? He was reaching in to his van, his hands were not visible. Why wait till he has drawn on me to draw on him? He was the one committing battery, not me. I was at work earning a paycheck.

    Why point at him with the muzzle if I am at a close ready just in case. Muzzle safely pointed down is better than drawing cold from holster. If I had needed to fire, I would have. Not like I was "threatening" without action.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I was looking forward to your response Tally...You didn't disappoint.

    I do understand that you have a right to use force up to and including lethal force to stop a felonious attack. The attack stopped when you two approached and it doesn't sound like it was what you thought it was. After she said she was in no danger, and he was no longer attacking, you were no longer stopping an attack. You were using force to detain him.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I was looking forward to your response Tally...You didn't disappoint.

    I do understand that you have a right to use force up to and including lethal force to stop a felonious attack. The attack stopped when you two approached and it doesn't sound like it was what you thought it was. After she said she was in no danger, and he was no longer attacking, you were no longer stopping an attack. You were using force to detain him.
    I just got home from work, long day! Wow, I came back to a lot of posts on this thread I didn't expect.

    Look, I know I am not a cop and I dont try to act like one. But, I know I am an American citizen and I have every duty and right to detain someone who is acting deranged and is a possible danger to me or others. Using tactics similar to LE is exactly the right tactics to use. I guess we could have hog tied him with rope but we lawfully used our weapons, which is exactly why we carry them.

    Yes, the attack on the woman stopped when we intervened. All would have been fine if he had simply tried to explain what happened. He didn't. He got belligerent and wouldn't stop circling his van and reaching inside. All things pointed to him being a threat and possibly reaching for a weapon. He then became a threat to myself and my boss.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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    Member Array BillArkansas's Avatar
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    I appreciate Tally XD sharing, in detail, the sequence of events.

    However, simple and direct observation would have been best plan to protect the CCP holder against possible legal action from the man and woman.

    I know this may sound frustrating but CCP intent is for sd not law enforcement.
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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    None of us were there, so whether your actions were appropriate in effecting a 'citizens arrest', is probably not fair for us to judge, but you sure do open yourself up to a lot of liability in performing one. Especially with you not having a full understanding of the offense, an unintelligible victim who admits to a medical problem, and the fact that if it was determined what you saw was not a felonious offense, your arrest is invalid and, in fact, criminal.

    FWIW, if my wife was having an epileptic or low insulin attack and you detained me at gunpoint for 10 minutes because you saw me trying to get her into my vehicle, I would be pretty distressed, too.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillArkansas View Post
    I appreciate Tally XD sharing, in detail, the sequence of events.

    However, simple and direct observation would have been best plan to protect the CCP holder against possible legal action from the man and woman.

    I know this may sound frustrating but CCP intent is for sd not law enforcement.
    We did observe directly. We acted. Thing is, when you need to intervene time is of the essence. What good can one do if you only worry about the repercussions? Yes, we certainly opened ourselves up to legal consequences, but in today's society cops do too. Cops have no more ability to ascertain a situation until they have taken control of the situation.

    How many incidents have involved a cop mishandling situations? DEA agents who shoot themselves in teh leg while giving hand gun "safety" courses. Agents who dont recognize a Kel Tek from an Uzi or Mac 10. Street officers who dont know the laws of their state when it comes to armed citizens and concealed carry. Cops shooting the wrong guy. Does this sound like cops are perfect?

    Crap happens, even if his intent was right. No one is perfect, but standing by isn't always the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    None of us were there, so whether your actions were appropriate in effecting a 'citizens arrest', is probably not fair for us to judge, but you sure do open yourself up to a lot of liability in performing one. Especially with you not having a full understanding of the offense, an unintelligible victim who admits to a medical problem, and the fact that if it was determined what you saw was not a felonious offense, your arrest is invalid and, in fact, criminal.
    We didn't exactly effect a citizens arrest. We never tried to physically "detain or hold" the man. We just wanted to protect ourselves from a possible weapon. If he had gotten into his van and drove off, without the woman, we would not have stopped him.

    How many home invasions lately have we read about where the homeowner "detained" the intruder until police get there? Is this any different? I don't really think so.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUT View Post
    Yes, I'm not ashamed of it, in fact he tried to hit me first. Maybe I should have posted that. I didn't beat him out of anger or revenge,I hit him once,he started to get up and I thought that he was going to get a weapon,pretty sure he was ,so I kicked him in the face. Once he was no longer a danger I stopped.
    Yes, you should have posted that because it changes the dynamic and it changes my opinion. I thought you came upon a man hitting a woman (a vile and cowardly act) and beat the guy to a pulp.

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    I can't remember the exact wording:
    "Evil is created when good people do nothing"

    I cannot judge a situation as complex and dynamic as the OP on a few lines of description.

    Being a good witness is enough for some and not for others; we are all different; the OP, and myself, belong to the second category, but I have nothing against the "good witnesses"; they have their own reasons and needs I don't know of.

    However, there is one thing I read on this forum (and others) that gets me going:
    the belief that if you draw, you shoot; for me it is stupid B.S.
    Between my wife and myself, we have drawn 5 times in the last 29 years, never pulled the trigger.
    Remember the FBI statistics 90% of the cases where a citizen drew a gun, he/she didn't have to shoot ???
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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    Wow, from someone with a name of "Self Defense"? You mean you wouldn't "command" someone to get away from you? I guess that's illegal?
    It is not the command, it is the drawing of your weapon and giving commands based on a lethal threat. That is aggravated assault.

    Dear god, how many times have I heard how horribly slow LEO can be to actually respond. How many times have I heard that cops can get overwhelmed and cannot respond to events they are needed at? What does it take to be an upstanding citizen?
    The one thing that disturbs me most is not this particular incident, but rather your idea that the gun allows you to assume the powers we provide to law enforcement. You make many references to using the tactics of LE to conduct yourself in certain situations.

    And then this:
    Florida law allows for the use of weapons and firearms, even deadly force, to prevent a felonious assault which is exactly what this could have been.
    Could have been but wasn't. You can't draw your weapon and order people around because of what might happen.

    I know you posted this scenario to solicit opinions. Sometimes the responses are not exactly what you might have had in mind. Still, this is a valuable thread so people can assess the various responses and make wise decisions in times of great stress.

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    It is not the command, it is the drawing of your weapon and giving commands based on a lethal threat. That is aggravated assault.
    Which is exactly what a person does when accosted by someone and you draw your weapon and give a verbal command to stop! That's not aggravated assault.
    A command, while armed, is exactly what you are reinforcing with your weapon. Stop doing what you are doing as it is a threat to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The one thing that disturbs me most is not this particular incident, but rather your idea that the gun allows you to assume the powers we provide to law enforcement. You make many references to using the tactics of LE to conduct yourself in certain situations.
    The powers and rights provided to law enforcement are for their protection, self protection, and are the same laws and rights given to lawful gun owning citizens. Cops have the duty and power to arrest under warrant and at gunpoint. He has teh right to protect himself from attack.

    I have that same right to protection of myself and others. I do not have the powers of arrest, but I do have the right to detain as long as the person is being a threat. No arrest was made, no arrest was attempted. We did what we did for our own protection. Had he stepped away from the van or simply talked to us about what he was doing, we would have handled it differently. No weapons would have been drawn.

    Tactics?? C'mon, everyone uses tactics. The tactics law enforcement and military use were developed many eons ago by a civilian militia. They aren't black magic. We, as civilians, are carrying the same weapons used by LEO and military. Why wouldn't we use smart tactics as well? If a LEO can dodge a bullet by jumping a certain way, does that mean I cant use that same movement to save my own life? Or is it because its "LE tactics" its not to be used by civilians? Same with ammo. If LE can use it because it works, why shouldn't the civilian market be able to use the same quality ammo?

    You are almost sounding to me like one of those in teh military or law enforcement that would not honor the Constitution and would disarm the public if ordered to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    And then this:

    Could have been but wasn't. You can't draw your weapon and order people around because of what might happen.
    So, you wait until shots are fired at you to draw? Does a victim of a crime wait until he/she has been violated to do anything about it or do you take action to prevent it? Out only orders were to stay away from the van, which he seemed very interested in fumbling around in.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I know you posted this scenario to solicit opinions. Sometimes the responses are not exactly what you might have had in mind. Still, this is a valuable thread so people can assess the various responses and make wise decisions in times of great stress.
    I expected criticism of all kinds, just not so many telling me I should have gone to jail! I don't expect that I did everything correctly and I expected to hear the things that were done wrong, but I didn't think I would be made to look like a criminal.

    Well, I didn't go to jail, the police said all was done within the law and no one was injured. One cop even said he probably would have already shot the guy if he had been in our shoes.

    I would do this over again and will not hesitate if it ever needs be done. I hopefully will have more knowledge about how to go about doing it without jeopardizing my own safety (leaving my cover) next time.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    Out only orders were to stay away from the van, which he seemed very interested in fumbling around in.
    Out of curiousity, do you know what he was looking for or ever ask him? You already said his wife was suffering from low insulin and was unintelligible/not reacting normally. Did you ever consider the fact(during the altercation or afterwards) that he may have just been trying to find her insulin shots and you were detaining him at gunpoint preventing him from doing so?

    I said in an Edit earlier, if my wife was having some sort of attack and two people stopped me from being able to help her at gunpoint, I would be pretty anxious, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I hopefully will have more knowledge about how to go about doing it without jeopardizing my own safety (leaving my cover) next time.
    I think that is the purpose of posting things like this. It's not so a bunch of people can jump up on their high horse in their comfy living room and tell you that you are a criminal and should be in jail...

    Did you do things that weren't the best idea? Sure. You recognize that. But very rarely does any operation planned or unplanned go right, but we learn from it and move on.

    I've posted criticism of your actions and I thought a few other people posted were good ideas as well, but those have already been noted and I don't think it does any good to beat them to hell and back. That doesn't do yourself, nor people who read this any good.

    There is a difference between constructive citicism and making someone look bad.

    Disclaimer: This only applies to a select few posts I've read, most have been very good to take note of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Out of curiousity, do you know what he was looking for? You already said his wife was suffering from low insulin and was unintelligible/not reacting normally. Did you ever consider the fact(during the altercation or afterwards) that he may have just been trying to find her insulin shots and you were detaining him at gunpoint preventing him from doing so?

    I said in an Edit earlier, if my wife was having some sort of attack and two people stopped me from being able to help her at gunpoint, I would be pretty anxious, too.
    This is a good point to take note of, however I suspect that if that was the case, the person would be communicating just that. I know I sure would be.

    I think that perhaps once the "victim" was out of harms way, I would have just backed up to my cover and watched and waited for police (assuming I had left cover in the first place, which has already been covered here)
    Smith & Wesson M&P9cCrossbreed Supertuck
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  16. #45
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Feb 2009
    Location
    TN
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    Tally,
    You were right to pull when he went in the van,my bad. Even before then if that's what you felt was right. I wasn't there,can't judge the distances,lighting or any of that. If you felt a threat you did what you had to.

    Self Defense,
    I used to work security at the busiest bar in the world, guys who abused women there did not go out through the front door,they left out of the back,at the bottom of a long staircase. They always managed to become intimate with every step , it's only fair.
    This particular incident didn't happen there though.

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