Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!! - Page 4

Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!!

This is a discussion on Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jfl I can't remember the exact wording: "Evil is created when good people do nothing" "The only thing necessary for evil to ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    I can't remember the exact wording:
    "Evil is created when good people do nothing"
    "The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" - Winston Churchill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Out of curiosity, do you know what he was looking for or ever ask him? You already said his wife was suffering from low insulin and was unintelligible/not reacting normally. Did you ever consider the fact(during the altercation or afterwards) that he may have just been trying to find her insulin shots and you were detaining him at gunpoint preventing him from doing so?
    We never got to speak with the man. He was yelling at us about our weapons and that he was in fear of his life. Jason, my boss, simply shouted to him to stay away from the van. He would not communicate with us other than his yelling and moving around.

    I spoke with the woman briefly after he let her go. She came over towards me. She never told me who he was or why he was shoving her into the van. The man never spoke with either myself or Jason. He just acted agitated, nervous, infuriated and strange. He mostly was yelling at us that we could not use weapons against him. I repeatedly told him no weapons had been used or even pointed at him as of yet. At that point, neither myself or my boss had pulled our weapons. He wasn't at the van at that moment though. He went behind the van, hovered around for a minute, went to the driver door, opened it up, reached inside for some reason, closed the driver door, walked back around the back of the van again, came around to the passenger side door which was still open, reached around inside there a little, came to the front of the van yelling at us then meandered away from the van and over towards the woman but never once said a word to her. Also, at no time during this encounter did the woman ever say a word to the man.

    Other than what the woman said to me about being diabetic no information was given to us about who they were or why they were there or why he was shoving her in to the van.

    I doubt that, if he was concerned with her diabetes, that he would have had her in a choke hold. I have never seen anyone treat diabetics with choking!

    The choke hold was the first part of the assault we noticed. We were just going to watch the van and make sure they left. We had no idea this would escalate.



    Quote Originally Posted by BamaSteve View Post
    This is a good point to take note of, however I suspect that if that was the case, the person would be communicating just that. I know I sure would be.

    I think that perhaps once the "victim" was out of harms way, I would have just backed up to my cover and watched and waited for police (assuming I had left cover in the first place, which has already been covered here)
    I agree. He wouldn't communicate with us and he wouldn't keep his hands out of the van. If he would simply had told us what was going on and that he had no intentions of injury of anyone it would have gone no farther until the police arrived.

    I too feel we made a mistake leaving the cover of the truck. That is a mistake I have learned from. Next time something like this happens hopefully I will have my rifle with me instead of just a pistol. Sure, we had several rifles in teh truck, but all ammo for rifles is left inside the shop. None were loaded, all were in cases and were not ready for immediate use.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUT View Post
    Tally,
    You were right to pull when he went in the van,my bad. Even before then if that's what you felt was right. I wasn't there,can't judge the distances,lighting or any of that. If you felt a threat you did what you had to.
    The incident began at about 8:30pm. It was almost dark and there was some light from street lights on the highway. It was dark enough that we could not tell the woman was middle aged. She was small and looked like the size of a teenager.

    Since his passenger door was open the interior lights were on in the van and I could at least see his movements when he reached into the car.

    I waited with my hand on the grip of my XD for as much as I possibly could. I had no intention to draw on the man as long as I didn't feel threatened in any way. I just figured that since he was on private property, shoving a woman into a van and was being stopped by armed men, that he would comply or at least try to explain what was going on. He did neither and would not keep his hands out of his car.

    I figured this was a domestic or she was a prostitute and he was just getting physical with her. However, reaching into an open car door, inside your pants or into a glove box is a threatening move when someone else has you "detained" from being a further threat. We only wanted him to remain calm and visible until police arrived to settle the situation.

    Police, 911 rather, was called immediately upon approaching them.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Again I ask...what would you have done if he refused and/or got into HIS vehicle and drove off?

    If someone had a gun (and it appears from his comments, he felt threatened)..he might like to get the hell out of there.

    Rick

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Again I ask...what would you have done if he refused and/or got into HIS vehicle and drove off?

    If someone had a gun (and it appears from his comments, he felt threatened)..he might like to get the hell out of there.

    Rick
    I am sure he did feel threatened. That was the point of us being armed. But, what no one seems to get is that we, Jason and I, were also feeling threatened by someone we didn't know, who had just been witnessed choking a small person and trying to stuff them into a van. Who is the bad guy here?

    When we first noticed the van, we could only see him standing at the drivers door. He was tall enough that his head was above the roof line. She, teh woman/person unknown, was obviously at the rear of the van. She came out of nowhere and all of a sudden we see him with her in a choke hold around her neck.

    If he had just gotten into his van and left, we would not have stopped him as long as he wasn't trying to run us over. He wasn't even trying to sit in his van he just kept reaching inside it through the open door, on both sides and hovering around behind his van. Not once did he ever sit in the seat. He just went back and forth, around behind it, back to the driver side, then around to the passenger side, back behind it again, etc.

    All he had to do was say "I am leaving", or simply get in it and leave.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I would of observed ,called 911,and been prepared to follow the vehicle if it left while being on the line with 911
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  6. #51
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    That must have been really nerve wracking every time that he reached into the van. What a weird way to act,for both of them. I wonder if they were crack heads.

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    My $0.02...

    I agree with the others who have said that you're lucky that you didn't have any problems with the police over this...if these people weren't the "known dirtbags" that they apparently are, you might have been in for some trouble. I can see why you had cause for concern in the initial moments of the incident (seeing a woman apparently being forced into a vehicle). Furthermore, I can't really fault your initial response (calling 911 and approaching to find out what was going on). However, I think that once you found out that she was not, in fact, being kidnapped your involvement should have ended. At that point, I think the best response would have been to get the license number and then return to your truck and wait for the police.

    I think you need to spend some time researching the legalities of self-defense, use of force, and powers of arrest/detention. You made a few statments in your posts in this thread that are somewhat disturbing. For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    On one occasion when he reached into the passenger side of the van he also made a move to adjust or reach into his waistband. This was the first and only time my weapon left its holster. I drew my XD45 but kept it pointed down and finger along side the slide. I never pointed it at the man.

    At no point did I ever really feel threatened, just that I needed to be very alert and watch his every move.
    If you didn't feel threatened, why did you draw your pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    Florida law allows for the use of weapons and firearms, even deadly force, to prevent a felonious assault which is exactly what this could have been.
    And as soon as you found out it was not, you should have backed off. After reading all your posts, I'm still unsure exactly why you and your friend felt the need to detain these people. If they were on private property, then tell them to leave and let the police deal with them if they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    Citizens arrest still exists if you have even ever heard of it. We did not attempt to arrest this man. We followed guidelines such as make it loud and clear the person should STOP what they are doing.
    What gave you any right, in this situation, to order this man to do anything after you had determined that he was not trying to kidnap the woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    Do we have less right to tell the person to get away from the car than we do to tell someone to back up away from me? His reaching into the vehicle is a dangerous move and could possibly be a direct offense to us.
    Again, what right did you have to tell the person to get away from HIS vehicle...you're not cops conducting a traffic stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    You/we absolutely have the right to command someone to do whatever it takes to assure your safety. He was on OUR property remember? He was acting in a suspicious manner. All he had to do was stay out of his van and chill out.
    Remind me again, what crime had he committed at this point? What would have been the problem with just getting his license number and relaying that info. to the police?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    Look, I know I am not a cop and I dont try to act like one. But, I know I am an American citizen and I have every duty and right to detain someone who is acting deranged and is a possible danger to me or others.
    really?...
    and on a side note, everyone you encounter is a "possible danger" but there's a difference between "possible danger" and imminent threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    All would have been fine if he had simply tried to explain what happened. He didn't. He got belligerent and wouldn't stop circling his van and reaching inside.
    What gives you the right to demand an explanation? As to his demeanor, if two random armed dudes approached me I would probably be a little agitated as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    We never tried to physically "detain or hold" the man. We just wanted to protect ourselves from a possible weapon. If he had gotten into his van and drove off, without the woman, we would not have stopped him.
    You might not have physically laid hands on him but ordering him away from the vehicle, etc. I'm sure he felt like he was being detained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    How many home invasions lately have we read about where the homeowner "detained" the intruder until police get there? Is this any different? I don't really think so.
    Yes, because in the case of a home invasion, they have committed a forcible felony in your house. In the incident you were involved in, it apears the only crime that might have been committed was a misdemeanor-level assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD
    I do not have the powers of arrest, but I do have the right to detain as long as the person is being a threat
    You said earlier that you didn't feel threatened?...
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  8. #53
    Member Array Bigpoppa48's Avatar
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    Some people do not need a firearm. These same people that draw down on people if you took that firearm away from them they couldn't beat themselves out of a wet paper bag. A concealed weapons permit gives you the right to use a firearem whenYou or your loved ones feels your life is in immediate danger You are not given the authority to police the community.

  9. #54
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    I quit reading all the post, but the only thing I have to say is that a lot of people talk the talk, but you walked the walk.

    Just because of some "technicality" something may not be legal, but it may just be right.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    As I read your account, I saw a situation that looked like these two at the van were drawing you away from a truckload of guns and keeping you distracted while the "other accomplices" would try to get to the guns.
    You could have found yourselves out in the open between armed people at the van, and armed people at your truckload of guns, and in one heap of trouble.
    Exactly what I was thinking.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigpoppa48 View Post
    Some people do not need a firearm. These same people that draw down on people if you took that firearm away from them they couldn't beat themselves out of a wet paper bag. A concealed weapons permit gives you the right to use a firearem whenYou or your loved ones feels your life is in immediate danger You are not given the authority to police the community.
    Not a true statement, we are with-in bounds to use deadly force to stop a rape without the victim being one of my "loved ones" and if memory serves me, also to stop a kidnapping.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  12. #57
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    I quit reading all the post, but the only thing I have to say is that a lot of people talk the talk, but you walked the walk.

    Just because of some "technicality" something may not be legal, but it may just be right.


    Z
    I think that neatly reflects what I wanted to say too after reading everything here. It disgusts me that people are so selfish that they are content to sit on the side lines while someone else is in trouble. Citizen's arrest still exists. Civil duty still exists. Sure things aren't always exactly what they seem, but when it seems wrong then it is going to be wrong somehow or another and someone somewhere needs help. That just means you have the responsibility to figure out as much as you can before doing anything. It does not mean you just sit on your butt and "be a witness". By golly, so much crap about how the cops cant do everything for us and that normal citizens need to step up and do something for themselves, but when it is for someone else then the cops are suddenly good enough? Hypocrisy!


    In this situation, even after approaching and finding it was an adult, there was still some thing obviously wrong. Kidnapping an adult is almost as bad as a kid, and you can't always trust the victim to be honest that "there isnt a problem".

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post

    After the sale the owner, Jason, and I began to close up shop. Since a break-in two weekends ago all rifles and handguns are removed from the store and taken to the owners home. We do not yet have a safe installed (that is coming soon).
    Something I find not so comforting is a gun store without a safe. How many guns made it out the door during the burglary? There must be a state of federal law regulating the storage at a gunstore before you can get a license.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    I didn't realize you were Military. I grew up a Navy Brat, so I get it...in which case, I retract my "your safety is paramount" statement because you guys never put yourselves first. In which case, I'd like to give you my sincere gratitude for your service to our Country.

    The rest of it, I stand by. Your heart was in the right place, but I'm thankful things didn't escalate to the point of violence, lethality, or jail. I do hope the whole incident is over and the moron doesn't decide to come back again to get in "another chance" or something.

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array Rcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    My $0.02...

    I agree with the others who have said that you're lucky that you didn't have any problems with the police over this...if these people weren't the "known dirtbags" that they apparently are, you might have been in for some trouble. I can see why you had cause for concern in the initial moments of the incident (seeing a woman apparently being forced into a vehicle). Furthermore, I can't really fault your initial response (calling 911 and approaching to find out what was going on). However, I think that once you found out that she was not, in fact, being kidnapped your involvement should have ended. At that point, I think the best response would have been to get the license number and then return to your truck and wait for the police.

    I think you need to spend some time researching the legalities of self-defense, use of force, and powers of arrest/detention. You made a few statments in your posts in this thread that are somewhat disturbing.

    KenpoTex, I couldnt agree with you more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    Please feel free to critique our actions. Tell me what you feel we did right or wrong and explain.

    You know Tally, ...

    You come into an internet forum with a real life situation asking for others to comment on your experience looking for admiration or exoneration for your actions. You had to expect to receive a plethora of responses to your situation.

    I personally have taken offense to you calling me the enemy. You have no clue who I am and you have no right to judge me from a one line sentence taken from a public forum. I have served this country through several campaigns and have risked my life for for right and wrong whether or not I agreed with it. It was my duty. Chances are, you followed me on the beach.

    Many of us have given you our "opinions" as you asked, but you seem to feel the need to be admired for your citizenship. This situation may not be over. There could very well be an investigation ensuing over this and you may be placing your actions and future at risk by this public display of verbage. You've made several admissions here and I hope for your sake, its over.

    I stand by my original statement. If you felt the need to intervene in this situation, I think you should have done so without the need to show lethal force until it was warranted, as it turns out, it was not. As you mentioned, there was no time that you felt threatened by the situation, but you still needed to draw your weapon? You and your boss were dangerously close to becoming judge, jury and executioner. I hope you are prepared for what could possibly be, a life changing decision.
    "Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem". - Ronald Reagan 1981

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