Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!! - Page 5

Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!!

This is a discussion on Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tally XD Please feel free to critique our actions. Tell me what you feel we did right or wrong and explain. Since ...

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Thread: Real situation tonight - Weapons cleared holsters!!

  1. #61
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    Please feel free to critique our actions. Tell me what you feel we did right or wrong and explain.
    Since I wasn't there, I can't really critique your actions at the time. I see quite a few have posted that you may have gone a little to far, and hopefully you give that some consideration. Criticism is just data, take it, analyze it, then apply it as needed.

    However, I will critique the after-action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    At no point did I ever really feel threatened, just that I needed to be very alert and watch his every move.
    The only suggestion I would make is don't post publicly after. IANAL, but from what I understand laws in my area, what you say you were thinking at the time removed all lawful reasons to have your gun visible. You had already said that you knew a felony wasn't being committed and you didn't feel threatened.

    Just because the police didn't arrest you at the time doesn't mean they can't decide, several months later even, that you committed a crime and arrest you. Your comments on the board could be used as evidence.

    Since the police had run-ins with these 2 people before, chances are their report was "biased" in your favor, so I wouldn't worry about it, but keep these things in mind in case there is a next time.


  2. #62
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    During times when we aren't burdened by a stressful situation, we all have a basic position as to our duties or involvment in something like this. As a populace our positions range from A-Z, we aren't all on the same page and our positions reflect our personal desires, opinions, involvement, life experiences, etc. It doesn't make one set of opinions right or wrong either.

    Keeping all that in mind our basic position changes when we are suddenly burdened by a stressful situation, it's likely your basic position will shift under pressure. It may or may not in some cases, but I'd say in most cases it will shift some either way during the event you witness.

    I'm not saying getting involved or not is right or wrong, because EVERY situation is a different combination of circumstances.

    That being said I have a few thoughts on this, YMMV:

    1. Being a good witness is a fine way to play it safe; getting more involved will definitely increase your personal risk.

    2. Sometimes people's lives are really in jeopardy and a bystander's involvement or not, would determine whether someone lived or died.
    As ordinary citizens we could always be confronted with getting involved because someone was trapped in a housefire, injuries in a automobile accident, witnessing a medical emergency, etc.......it's not just gun related decisions. Life is full of decisions on whether to get involved or not.

    3. I can't possibly make an enlightening comment on this thread, I wasn't there and too many what-if's, tactic strategy, breaking the law, threatened or not, etc, etc. I will say this though, at least it doesn't appear the OP was arrested or admonished by the police. My point could be relevant or not, but bottom-line it's a good thing for the OP.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  3. #63
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    Something I find not so comforting is a gun store without a safe. How many guns made it out the door during the burglary? There must be a state of federal law regulating the storage at a gunstore before you can get a license.
    I stated it wrongly here. All guns have always been removed from the store since he has been selling guns. No guns were stolen during the break-in as there were none to steal. A safe was ordered last week and will be installed in the next three to four weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rcher View Post
    KenpoTex, I couldnt agree with you more.

    You know Tally, ...

    You come into an internet forum with a real life situation asking for others to comment on your experience looking for admiration or exoneration for your actions. You had to expect to receive a plethora of responses to your situation.
    Yes, I posted my encounter for the learning benefit of myself and others here on the forum.
    Yes, I asked for criticism and knew I would get some.

    I didn't, however, expect to be labeled criminal for my actions. I figured that I did some things incorrectly or could have done some thing better, but not that I am now a person who should be jailed for having some concern for someone else and a possible threat to myself. I need no admiration for what I done.
    Those same ones labeling me criminal would probably have a different take on it had this "woman" been their wife or daughter. Yes, the woman turned out to be just that, a woman being abused by her man. I did not know that when this first began that night. It was not discovered until the police got there that this was a domestic case. She never told me she knew the man and the man never spoke to us about his actions. Yes, the forcible felony ended when he let her go and, up to the point where he continued to circle and reach into the car, I never drew my weapon. Had he simply communicated to us that he was not a threat we would not have continued. Once he let her go this all could have ended if he had not presented himself a possible threat to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rcher View Post
    I personally have taken offense to you calling me the enemy. You have no clue who I am and you have no right to judge me from a one line sentence taken from a public forum. I have served this country through several campaigns and have risked my life for for right and wrong whether or not I agreed with it. It was my duty. Chances are, you followed me on the beach.
    No sir, I have not followed you on any beach and you are correct, I do not know you. I apologize for offending you. My comment was mostly directed at you as to my feelings that I couldn't count on your help if I were in need. I meant to take nothing from you as a veteran of this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rcher View Post
    Many of us have given you our "opinions" as you asked, but you seem to feel the need to be admired for your citizenship. This situation may not be over. There could very well be an investigation ensuing over this and you may be placing your actions and future at risk by this public display of verbage. You've made several admissions here and I hope for your sake, its over.
    You are correct, it might not be over, but, I will tell the story again as I have here, honestly, and I will take the same actions again if I am ever in this situation again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rcher View Post
    I stand by my original statement. If you felt the need to intervene in this situation, I think you should have done so without the need to show lethal force until it was warranted, as it turns out, it was not. As you mentioned, there was no time that you felt threatened by the situation, but you still needed to draw your weapon? You and your boss were dangerously close to becoming judge, jury and executioner. I hope you are prepared for what could possibly be, a life changing decision.
    I said I never felt threatened until the point when the man reached into the passenger side of the van, which is the side I was on and was watching. Until that point, I had not drawn my weapon and only did so at that time because I had no idea what he might have pulled out.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30SF View Post
    Well I am glad it worked out for you guys but I think you should have called 911 and let them handle it. Follow him with 911 on the line if you want to go the extra mile. Here is a senario for you: Lets say the guy was a off duty or CC guy and he was trying to get his drunk/drugged out kid back home. You guys show up armed, he fears for HIS life a gun fight takes place.......You see this is heading no where good. My .02
    “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”.... Albert Einstein
    I understand your point, but, I kind of like your signature . . . .

    Do you really mean what your signature says?
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  5. #65
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    It's great to fantasize about being The White Knight rescuing damsels in distress but lets face it, that's not reality. The truth most often conforms more to your experience than Prince Charming's.

    YMMV however it's just not worth it to me to go rushing into some unknown situation, taking a chance on:

    A: Getting locked up
    B: Getting a criminal charge whether it be misdemeanor/felony/firearm
    C: Getting gravely injured (shot, stabbed, fracture, beating)
    D: Losing my privilege to carry a concealed weapon
    E: Losing my right to own a firearm
    F: Losing contact with my family and friends due to incarceration
    G: Whatever else I haven't thought of......

    We are not the Protectors of the Planet. That lady had the same ability we have to not marry a loser, leave the jerk, and buy a handgun.

    My sidearm is for the protection of me and mine unless angels whisper in my ear and tell me otherwise. Don't criticize me for being selfish. You want to be the humanitarian, I won't stop you either.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    It's great to fantasize about being The White Knight rescuing damsels in distress but lets face it, that's not reality. The truth most often conforms more to your experience than Prince Charming's.

    YMMV however it's just not worth it to me to go rushing into some unknown situation, taking a chance on:

    A: Getting locked up
    B: Getting a criminal charge whether it be misdemeanor/felony/firearm
    C: Getting gravely injured (shot, stabbed, fracture, beating)
    D: Losing my privilege to carry a concealed weapon
    E: Losing my right to own a firearm
    F: Losing contact with my family and friends due to incarceration
    G: Whatever else I haven't thought of......

    We are not the Protectors of the Planet. That lady had the same ability we have to not marry a loser, leave the jerk, and buy a handgun.

    My sidearm is for the protection of me and mine unless angels whisper in my ear and tell me otherwise. Don't criticize me for being selfish. You want to be the humanitarian, I won't stop you either.
    I don't agree with you on the "White Night" fantasy. I have no fantasies about rescuing anyone. I simply reacted to a situation. As I was leaving work I had absolutely no thought in my mind of anything that might happen out of the ordinary. I try to be prepared for it but I don't go looking for it.

    The rest of your critique is well stated and I accept it. I wont say it will change my actions next time, but, at least you didn't say I should be in jail over it.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  7. #67
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    Thumbs up Power and Improvement

    Yes, I posted my encounter for the learning benefit of myself and others here on the forum.
    Even tho analysis and critiques have ranged from A to Z as previously noted, this thread has been very informative and instructive. That is the power of what we're all doing here, reading, thinking, and learning.

    To the extent we all analyze and think about "what to do", it has the power to make all of us a "bit better" if ever confronted with a like situation.

    Great thread and great OP!


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  8. #68
    Member Array mortpes's Avatar
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    You took a chance and lived to tell the story. Personally, I would have just called it in and kept an eye on them and left my gun in the holster. If the parking lot site was part of the business site you can also order them off, although I would never do that gun point. It is just too easy for a confrontation such as this to develope into a homicide.

  9. #69
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    First and foremost, I think it's commendable that you risked life and limb to stop this assault. As you said, you couldn't tell what was going on and it could have been much worse than it turned out to be. It would have been difficult to be a helpful witness until you closed the distance enough to get some details.

    At the point that the assault ended though, it seems like things could have gone a lot better. It's not for me to say whether what you and your boss did is criminal, but I hope you find it telling that a number of people here (all very supportive of the right to self-defense) found your actions concerning. The officers at the scene may have been supportive but I agree that you're not out of the woods yet. The guy/girl could still press criminal charges and/or file a civil suit, and once it's in the courts all bets are off. Even if you were completely within your rights and the law to do what you did a skilled prosecutor could make your life very uncomfortable as paramedic mentioned:

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    ...

    YMMV however it's just not worth it to me to go rushing into some unknown situation, taking a chance on:

    A: Getting locked up
    B: Getting a criminal charge whether it be misdemeanor/felony/firearm
    C: Getting gravely injured (shot, stabbed, fracture, beating)
    D: Losing my privilege to carry a concealed weapon
    E: Losing my right to own a firearm
    F: Losing contact with my family and friends due to incarceration
    G: Whatever else I haven't thought of......

    ...
    With the benefit of hindsight I'd say that once the assault ended and you had some details to share with the dispatcher and at that point felt threatened enough to draw your pistol it would have been judicious to instead retreat and seek cover back inside your business and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

    Taking that route would have been safer for you and not risked your freedom, livelihood, and right to legally own and carry firearms.


    As a side note, people with both high and low blood sugar can become confused and disoriented. Extremely high blood sugar leading to diabetic ketoacidosis, or DKA, is more common than low blood sugar. Both scenarios can be life-threatening.

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Wow, gunstore commandos...
    You aren't officers and you have no right to tell somebody to 'step away from their vehicle' or give any of the other commands you gave, especially at gun point.

    I find it hard to believe you didn't end up in jail.
    Agreed on all points, and I read the OP twice to be sure I was fully understanding the situation as related first person.

    Further as others mention I too would not have left cover, weak as a car is for cover.
    Additionally once the woman was free and stated that all was fine but having a medical emergency I would have advised my partner (store owner) that we both fall back/retreat to the store itself and from there lock the door and call the cops whilst staying inside the building. Or get into our respective vehicles and depart, while calling the cops from the safety of distance.

    I'm a really big fan of distance. Distance tends to come with safety, from trouble.
    As well I would not have drawn on either person nor as the backup displayed and _brandished_ my firearm per this as stated observation.
    Holding a person by the arms is not a crime in itself nor is it most importantly imminent threat for anyone be it the observer, the person being held, nor the person doing the holding. Drawing on a person with firearms is not justified without there being _imminent_ threat of life or limb.
    I covered this over a year ago in a thread as oriented toward citizens titled; Three easy citizen CCW rules to know and memorize to avoid hard times.

    This sort of scenario is covered in FoF traning as well as live fire computer driven scenario developmental training for law enforcement officers, both of which I've personally participated in as a student playing the part of GG, BG, victim, and third party observer/witness.

    Bottom line I myself would not have made many of the plays the OP did not would I have supported his actions if I had been his secondary muchless made the moves his secondary thought to do.
    First person debriefing of events like this is good and beneficial for everyone including the person who was involved directly as well as we the 'community' to review, discuss, and learn from toward collective education and learning by proxy.
    Some folks like to toss around the 'Monday morning quarterback' term but fact is guess what LEOs, professionals, and quarterbacks too do after an event or big game? They have a debriefing, review, and discussion just as we are here for the exact reasoning and purpose as I stated which is for the betterment of everyone.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #71
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    I to think it was the right thing to do. I don't carry a gun to try to be the town leo. But i can guarantee you that if i was in the OP's shoes i would have gotten involved. Would i have done it the same as the OP who knows i wasn't there.

    This thread reminds me of the "what if you dropped your kid off at school and heard gunshots" thread I cant even imagine as a parent not trying to get involved but it is surprising how many would not. I was taught to always help others and i will do that if it lands me in a heap of trouble so be it. I will know i did the right thing.

  12. #72
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    Great post, also a great illustration....

    of the many different personalities and percieved responsibilities among a community devoted to "defense". I side wtih the Op and have in the past intervened and hold it as "part of me" that I watch for others. I don't "go looking" but I "see". And if evil appears, I take what action I think necessary. I don't ask advice or seek help. My wife believes it may get me hurt or worse, yet realizes it is my nature. I see the car parked where it shouldn't be, I percieve the out of context detail of the scene that peaks my curiosity and if it turns evil, I respond. It doesn't happen often, but as I live very near 5 or 6 million other folks, it doesn't occur too infrequently. I live in a no CCW state so we can take the gun aspect out of the equation for just one post and examine the beliefs and "feeling" of some here who hold positions similar to
    You have no authority to order anyone away from their vehicle.
    . You will never convince me that that is a rational thought. I have what authority I wish. It may allow you to question it after the fact but that is about post action analysis and not about action. I laud the OP for his mindset and action. The rest is argument, and granted thought may be provoked and future actions may be influenced. Hopefully more will understand the "sheepdog, wolf, sheep" scenario for something more than a metaphor.
    When I joined, I swore to protect and defend the Constitution. No one ever said I was relieved of that oath.

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The woman was likely one of these woman who are abused on a regular basis. They refuse to testify against the abusing boyfriend or husband when the police arrive. I believe you did the right thing and in doing so saved the woman from further abuse. You did a good thing but you also stuck your neck out. How would you have felt if you had not intervened and it turned out to be a real kidnapping. That's the trouble with people today,they do not want to get involved. You read about it every day in the news. Then it's to late for the victim.

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Getting involved and making inquiry is one thing.
    Getting involved and acting wrongly without lawful reasoning and ability is wholly another.

    Citizens are not law enforcement.
    Citizens lawfully armed do not have lawful right to act as though they are law enforcement.

    Commanding persons to act and behave in specific ways including telling them how and where to place themselves amongst a space is not an authority that a citizen has. The other person is not obliged in any way nor by law to comply.
    Drawing firearms on said person(s), as a citizen, to compel compliance without there being _imminent threat_ of life or limb is also not lawful nor required by the other persons to comply.

    One can imagine to them self whatever reasoning or potential possible scenario in the immediate that they want. But as such scenarios were not as fact in play and occurring nor witnessed directly then there is no lawful support to act and react with drawing and pointing of firearms at persons nor issuing of commands to comply in any manner.
    Not even an actual for real law enforcement officer would be right to draw on and engage persons as is described in this specific instance.

    If the male had choosen to tell the OP and his buddy to go pound sand he would have been right to do so and to _not_ comply to any of their commands and demands.
    Further if he had continued to hold the woman at her arms, which at best is simple assault, there still would be no lawful right for the citizens who are not law enforcement to draw firearms muchless point them down range at the person(s).

    Getting involved is not exclusive to running up on people, drawing guns, and issuing commands and/or veiled threat (spoken or implied) of comply or else.
    Yelling over; 'Hey! Stop that. Let her go! We _HAVE_ called 911 and the cops are on the way!' is for this situation a proper way of "getting involved" should a person choose to do so and would be well acting lawfully as well as being helpful to the perceived but in this case not known nor verified person who might may be a victim.

    Situations and reactions such as this exact as again told in first person view scenario are _exactly_ the reasons that the anti-gun and anti-CCW persons posited and still do as reasoning to disallow lawful citizen ownership and/or carry of firearms.
    Folks have to think things though and use their thinking caps and not be going by emotions alone be they fear, concern, illusions of heroism, etc. Interjecting ones self to "get involved" does not supersede the law and lawfulness by way of actions and results.

    Thank goodness no persons were injured or guns fired in this incident, nor arrested, as otherwise it would be yet another case as cited by the antis to use against the rest of us and not just today or tomorrow but for years to come.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #75
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    Bingo, +1 Jang

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Not even an actual for real law enforcement officer would be right to draw on and engage persons as is described in this specific instance.

    - Janq
    Jang, as usual hit, the nail on the head.

    The actual use or the threat of use of lethal force has requirements which were not met. Moreover, as Jang points out, they probably (state law varies) were not met in a way that would justify an LE to draw.

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