Disasters and property defense? - Page 2

Disasters and property defense?

This is a discussion on Disasters and property defense? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree. I know here in colorado: "18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder. (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens ...

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Thread: Disasters and property defense?

  1. #16
    Member Array OMEGA2669's Avatar
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    I agree. I know here in colorado:

    "18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

    (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

    (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

    (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force."


    So here... you're in my home... rummaging through my things. There is two crimes right there... if they didn't comply with my instructions to lay down on the ground spread out... bang bang. They made the choice to invade my home.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Jmac00's Avatar
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    well, lets talk about a situation similar to what happened in New Orleans.


    What would you do if the people/persons Looting your home were police? or in Police uniform? or Military? and the police department was as corrupt as the the New Orleans PD.

    Now you have a little problem, how do you engage a Uniformed police officer looting your home??? Who would you call for help?
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  3. #18
    Member Array celticredneck's Avatar
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    Since my driveway is about 200 yards long, I'd block it with my vehicle, then get out and walk about 100 yards up the dirt road I live on so that I can get a cell phone signal to call 911, before returning to hide in the woods beside the driveway and observe while I wait a half an hour or more for the deputies or state police to arrive.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    The stuff they are taking is MY STUFF, in MY HOME...no one is leaving unless they go through me...I know that things may go badly, I understand that I may be held responsible for my actions...I accept that. I am 62 years old, fed up with the world's scumbag thieves...I refuse to be a victim...I will defend myself, my family, and my home.
    exactly. In other words: No matter what the legal details look like, I doubt a prosecutor will charge or find a jury to convict the "angry old man" :).
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    If cell phone service has been restored I would call the local constabulary and see if they had someone available to respond. If not, I would probably set up 100-200 yards out and engage with a rifle. It is not my job to try to take them into custody, and in this situation I am not that big on sportsmanship.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Yeah, call the police. That will work.
    For days after the storms in '04 we had no power, therefore no land lines. We had no cell service, therefore no ability to call police.

    IF we could have called, they had too many other things on their plates.
    Days later when they showed up the BGs would have cleaned out the neighborhood and been on their merry way. Of course, if I said I had a gun on them, that might have changed things.

    During one of the hurricanes of '04, we had men going up and down our street knocking on doors to see who was home.

    Your guess as to why.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Jmac00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    If cell phone service has been restored I would call the local constabulary and see if they had someone available to respond. If not, I would probably set up 100-200 yards out and engage with a rifle. It is not my job to try to take them into custody, and in this situation I am not that big on sportsmanship.

    I don't know about Texas, but in New York that would come under the heading of Sniper and you would have a serious legal problem on your hands.

    It would show that you INTENDED to use deadly force. Even though it was your STUFF, it is just material things and the courts may have a problem with your approach.
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    If I had to leave...then I'd have my rifles with me. If I came home and found someone...ANYONE I didn't personally know and gave permission to be there in my home/garage...then they'd be handled like any good home invader I find...with my AR, my very foul language and their own minds wondering WTH is this crazy dude going to do.

    It's MY house, MY garage...MY STUFF. That I worked hard for, that I bought, that they have NO RIGHT TO HAVE.
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    This is all true, but there's also the practical matter of bodies. I don't want dead BGs rotting in my garage or driveway until emergency services get restored, and I can call a biohazard clean up crew and the police.

    As far as shooting, Florida law does not allow me that, but I think in a real disaster scenario with widespread looting, it may be understood. But then again, "understood" doesn't translate very well in all courtrooms. Regardless, if they're in an attached garage, I personally consider that as my actual home and as such, I would consider it part of the "castle."

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    In Texas we are allowed to shoot them if need be to keep them from removing the property. However, I think it would be a crap shoot in the court to try to take the shots from 100-200 yds away.

    Retsupt99 has it pretty well covered.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #26
    Member Array oldnonry's Avatar
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    I don't approve of some aspects of, what I'll call, "modern American culture ". IMO there's entirely too much greed in the corporate world, too much pandering of perversions in the media and too many criminals everywhere, including Wall St, and many local, state, and federal government offices.
    STILL....
    For the most part, I mind my own business. I don't go looking for trouble and I will even go out of my way to avoid it. I pay my taxes. I am a member of our neighborhood watch association and I make every effort to be a responsible, friendly citizen.
    BUT.......
    Disaster or not. Whether, burglary or home invasion. Anyone, I catch, entering my home uninvited will,....in the words of Kurt Russell as Wyatt Earp in "Tomstone",.... "call down the thunder."
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" - Thomas Jefferson

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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I would let my wife out of the truck at a safe distance since she is not armed and she would be calling 911. I would then go back and block the drive way with my truck and then take off in the opposite direction.There would be no shooting by me unless I'm shot at. I would wait as long as possible to block the driveway so as not to warn the BGs that something is up and give the cops a better chance of catching them.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    They could run out of the house alive or stay with a bunch of holes in them.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means
    ; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
    So I am unable to contact the sheriff's office, or they are unable to respond. I am out numbered three to one. I am justified in using force under 9.41 as they are trespassing and illegally disposessing me of my property to which they have no legal claim. As Texas law does not require that my use of force be limited to self defense I fail to see how range is an issue. The use of force is either legally justified, or it is not.
    ETA: If I can't get deputies to respond for looters, is it reasonable to assume I can get an ambulance if they injure me during an attempt to use less lethal means?
    And Jmac00, I do love visiting New York, but there are reasons I live in Texas. They don't coddle criminals down here. There are many situations that the folks here have decided killing the perpetrator is a reasonable and justified response, with no need to say you are sorry.
    Now if I should miss and they take off running empty handed, they sort of hit the lottery that day. If they don't, they might live to regret it, they might not.
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    In my case, since I live in Virginia and protection of property is not justification for the use of deadly force, I would call 911. Short of confronting them there is nothing else I can legally do.
    Yep, and same applies here in MA too. :|

    If I were visiting my office in VA (business owners have the exact same problems along with liability during civil unrest and emergencies) or returning to my residence in MA and found such a scenario occurring I'd be by law unjustified to do anything about it toward securing property.
    The singular exception would be non-pet 'live stock' which in itself is notable and an interesting long time view toward property defense across much of America.

    As suggested I too would drive by and past as though I did not live there and I'd dial 911, which under such civil emergency circumstances would be nearly useless as law enforcement would be spread thin with other of same and more pressing emergencies.

    Which would leave a person with just two other real choices...
    A) Suffer the indignity and protect their family;
    B) Take action on their own to protect their non-live stock property and if had expose their family to real danger and high potential of the loss of their property _AND_ their husband/father/son/brother.

    It would boil down to what is more and most important to ones self, regardless of where the law might stand in ones state on such a situation of B&E, theft, burglary and choice of action be it A or B.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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