Stepping up to the plate...
This is a discussion on Stepping up to the plate... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know this may sound a bit like a newbie question. I come at this from a very military view point, and as I develop ...
April 7th, 2009 09:16 PM
Stepping up to the plate...
I know this may sound a bit like a newbie question. I come at this from a very military view point, and as I develop good civilian carry habits, I was wondering if there is any standard, across the board rules on engaging a gunman in NY type situations.
Even tho I am not being threatened with a barrel at my face would this be a situation that the wise carrier should step up to the plat and protect those around you and yourself, or are their legal complications in which this action would be unwise.
I can firmly say that if this was the case, I would overlook the legalities and do the right thing, but I am curious what you all think.
April 7th, 2009 10:38 PM
For me there is no question. As a Cop I would be expected to step up and probably be attacked legally if I didn't. I would also act because it's in-grained, it's what we do.
But the real question is whether the average citizen would feel comfortable taking action. Most people might not feel comfortable making the decision to jump in- and with good cause. Without the training, experience or authority most people should probably be the best witness they can. On the other hand- there may be a moral issue if someone is in danger and you don't act.
Of course- many lawyers have gotten fat attacking people who have done the right thing!
April 7th, 2009 10:47 PM
I don't think I could look at myself in a mirror if I didn't do anything in such a situation.
But, I am old, had a terrific life, and my wife is a bright and can survive on her own easily, so the choice is clear for me: "Death before dishonor"
I have gone a couple times in situation some would have avoided, to help somebody; I was very fortunate, the sight of the gun and my determination made the perps change their mind, very quickly and they left very quickly.
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
April 8th, 2009 02:30 AM
1943 - 2009
A word of caution.
Originally Posted by evander
Forum rule #10:
Discussion of illegal activities except in reporting the actions of others is not allowed. Discussion for the purpose of promoting these activities may subject the poster to being banned. Admission of illegal activity on your part will be removed or the poster will given the opportunity to edit their admission out of the post. Anyone quoting or referencing deleted or edited posts will have their posts edited/removed as well. In short, DO NOT use this forum to admit to breaking the law.
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
April 8th, 2009 05:23 AM
As a retired old guy, with a lovely Wife, my focus is always on her well being, reference to stepping up to protect others? I am afraid that would be secondary to my protecting her.
As we go most places together, my focus is near to far, when we park, I always go to the passenger side to be there to help (also to scope out possible hazards, people or objects) a very noble thought to protect others, not quite sure leaving my Wife to get involved is in the cards.
April 8th, 2009 09:20 AM
I would have to be certain that I knew exactly what was going on ...like seeing the event unfold from the beginning or seeing someone engaging a uniformed police officer.
I wouldn't get involved if I was with my family or if the combatants looked as if they were both gang members, and I wouldn't jump in unless I had a clear advantage as I would be reluctant to get killed for a stranger (unless it was a child).
The more I think about this, the more ifs, ands & buts I can come up with....guess you just need to be there, process all the info you have and make the decision on the spot.
There are legal ramifications to every thing you do but I doubt if you would be in much hot water if you were the guy that stopped the next mall shooter.
I see this thread as more of a "What are the legal ramifications of coming to the aid of another person" as opposed to suggesting that anyone break the law.
April 8th, 2009 09:34 AM
Part of the equation in making these decisions is state law. For example, in FL, one of the permissible situations is to prevent the commission of a violent felony on another person. What is your law in IN?
Originally Posted by evander
In addition, as has been noted, where is your family (your first concern and responsibility)?
Do you KNOW for certain what is going down? There have been a number of threads where someone got involved not knowing the whole story and mucked it up worse.
What (who) is your backdrop if you shoot? You are responsible for every round fired and where it ends up, regardless of your intentions.
Part of being responsible for your family is staying out of prison and not having a criminal record so you can support them.
Tough decisions. There are seldom easy answers.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
April 8th, 2009 09:36 AM
Thank you Rotorblade. Thats exactly what I meant by that. My question is more about the "legal ramifications of coming to the aid of another person" rather than breaking the law. I have a hard time stretching my scenario to supporting breaking the law but Im sorry if it put a knot in anyone's panties.
April 8th, 2009 09:44 AM
I carry a gun for the expressed purpose of protecting myself, my loved ones and to prevent others from being victimized.
Sheep dog among the sheep if you will.
Having said that, I have no Rambo dreams. I will carefully weigh the situation and be sure of what is going on. But like someone else said, "Death before Dishonor".
I am sure that I would have some difficulties (after the fact) from taking a life. I am also pretty sure in a SD situation, I would get over it without too much of an issue.
I have no such belief that I would ever get over having the ability to stop others from dying and NOT acting. I know that would haunt me forever. I firmly believe I would act. Act sanely and with regard for my own safety, but act none the less.
April 8th, 2009 09:44 AM
miklcolt45: I dont have such a hard time with the tactical ramifications of these situation, Im very trained in those areas, its the legal areas I have a hard time know for sure on. All the state law I have a hold of is about the permit, I cannot find anything on Rules of Engagement.
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.
Thanks for the info on the other states.
April 8th, 2009 01:16 PM
If you are legally armed with a firearm and have the chance to act against an active shooter I would do so. A good shot would be to put the gun right to his head. When the wolf is slaughtering the sheep the sheepdog must act.- George
BTW your tab leads me to believe you knew the answer.
April 8th, 2009 01:28 PM
Captain: He wasnt saying to do anything illegal. He was saying he would not worry about legal action being taken against him for helping someone and doing the right thing.
Thats how I read it.
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"The Double Tap Center Mass Boogie. Learn it, know it, love it, shoot it. Good guys should live, bad guys not so much. " - Ted Nugent 09
April 8th, 2009 01:49 PM
Would I go rushing into a building I hear shots coming from, the answer is no. But if I'm inside the building already, then the person doing the shooting is a threat to my life and I would take appropriate actions to protect myself.
April 8th, 2009 05:32 PM
First off, evander, welcome to the site. As with just about every other thing in life, it simply depends on the situation I am in. I am not gonna sit by idly and watch someone become a victim if I can prevent it but I am not gonna try and do the job of a LEO either.
"He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci
April 24th, 2009 07:04 AM
Nice to see the measured, common sense replies to this quite serious question.
The "Unless it was a child" +1 Have been there, done that.
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