Can this be wrong ?

This is a discussion on Can this be wrong ? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If I am a legal handgun owner with a legal conceal carry permit and I am in a convience store carrying in a state that ...

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Thread: Can this be wrong ?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    Can this be wrong ?

    If I am a legal handgun owner with a legal conceal carry permit and I am in a convience store carrying in a state that I am legally carrying in.
    -------
    Is it my right to interfere with an attempted robbery (especially if I am in the store) with my gun regardless if the perp has a gun or not ?
    If the perp has a gun and is threatening and I decide to fire, am I in the right ? I would think so....

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  3. #2
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    Array P95Carry's Avatar
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    Art - not to dodge the issue but - circumstances will always alter events! No hard and fast rules that are ''fit-all".

    I'd not say you have any ''right'' per se - but you may decide depending on conditions that you do - or do not - have a duty. Only a specific situation would determine that, plus your own best judgement.

    Overall we agree I think that involvement is not entirely desirable and then, whether a gun or not?! Well much would depend IMO on your perceived threat level - both to you and/or a third (or more) parties. Probably in many cases if no gun then you could be on some pretty thin ice but that said - a major upcoming knife attack - well that could be pretty serious.

    If threat seen as low then let the perp do his robbing and be prepared to be a good witness. I would NOT get involved with lethal force as a pre-requisite at all - but as I mentioned, in the end it would be you, there (wherever) on that day at that time - having to make your best decision, for that specific event.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Array acparmed's Avatar
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    Well Said Chris.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    Thanx Chris, I have always thought that but at times other people try to blur my vision of right and wrong ; can or can't do.
    I really don't want to harm anyone and I'm not the law, but I do know if I and mine are directly threatened, the outcome is for me to still be standing and breathing.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Every circumstance is different, be you own judge.
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    Distinguished Member Array BCurry1's Avatar
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    In my CCW class in OK, we were told that you could only use deadly force when your life is threatened, the life your spouse, mother, brother, sister, father, employer, or employee. I was told other than this, you cannot use your weapon.

    Its up to you to decide, but some would say a man with a gun in the store is a threat on your life. Not really sure how I would handle the situation.
    Curry

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCurry1
    In my CCW class in OK, we were told that you could only use deadly force when your life is threatened, the life your spouse, mother, brother, sister, father, employer, or employee. I was told other than this, you cannot use your weapon.

    Its up to you to decide, but some would say a man with a gun in the store is a threat on your life. Not really sure how I would handle the situation.

    Thats pretty much how it is here to if its not a immediate threat to you or someone close then be a good witness.. now it all changes if the guy with the knife decides to go to work on the clerk ...


    As said above only you can decide what's right at the time its going on

  9. #8
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    yep , alot depends on state law. Personally I would consider discresion the better part of valor in most instances.

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    Artz, you have to check your state tried cases, see what was the outcome and that would be the basis of your actions IMHO. I would even go as to check them in a county to county basis.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I am only alive today because of the actions of strangers who could have let me be hurt or killed, but they took action against it. For instance, the man who caught me when my bicycle nearly had a head on collision with a pickup truck when I was 8. I don't know who he was, he didn't know who I was, but he was in the position to do something about it and he did.

    Question: What is the only reason we can safely assume that another individual would point a firearm at someone?

    Answer: To kill them.

    I'm not disagreeing that odds are fair to excellent that the circumstances may dictate the best thing to do is be the good witness... I can see all sorts of complicating factors...

    But in the wash, the person behind the counter is a person. The thing pointing a gun at them is a soulless monster who wants to kill them. IF you had the opportunity to stop someone from dying, IF the ball was in your court, IF you had a clear shot and the perfect opportunity, is it right to play with someone else's life?

    As I said, odds are pretty good that the best you can do is watch because I can see all sorts of complications arising, but if there aren't any, is inaction the right thing to do?

    You've no obligation to protect anyone but you and yours to be sure, but let's pretend for a second you had a device you carried on your person that could save someone's life at the push of a button. If you saw someone about to die, even if you didn't know them, would you push the button?

    Discretion is the better part of valor, prudence and cunning triumph over whimsical heroic fancy, but the human race survives only because of its own kindness towards itself. How would you feel if your 19 year old daughter came home in a body bag one night from her job at Texaco, and you know that the man who watched her die could have at least tried to stop it? You wouldn't blame him for what somebody else did, but I'd imagine you'd never stop questioning why she had to die...

    Perhaps the ideal solution is to protect the person covertly so that they're not in any real danger no matter what happens. Human life deserves to be protected; if logic and circumstances dictate you could save someone's life, I think you should. Just my opinion. The likelihood of your having to do that in such a situation is pretty small though I think.

  12. #11
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    The levels of complexity increase! I don't think any of us will ever know the "outcome" until or if we face it. The reason to train, train, think, discuss, and train more.
    Richard

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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Artz, you have to check your state tried cases, see what was the outcome and that would be the basis of your actions IMHO. I would even go as to check them in a county to county basis.
    That is a good idea Miggy. The laws are changing/upgrading quick, and I'm gonna be at a constant vigil to make sure I am in the right.
    At the moment, Georgia seems to be changing a few of its gun laws for the better. It almost seems that they are mirroring Florida's laws.
    -----
    How about you Floridians out there ? Would your states' gun laws allow you to interfere without fear of persecution ?
    This lil' talk is gettin interesting...

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array czman2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean

    Perhaps the ideal solution is to protect the person covertly so that they're not in any real danger no matter what happens. Human life deserves to be protected; if logic and circumstances dictate you could save someone's life, I think you should. Just my opinion. The likelihood of your having to do that in such a situation is pretty small though I think.
    Well said! Human life is too precious to let some BG decide to end someone's over money. If he has a gun and is pointing it at somebody, I'm going to assume he might well shoot me also, so I would decide my life is in danger, too. If anyone is going to meet his maker, it's the BG, not me. But let's hope we never have to make that choice!
    "Let not your heart be troubled." John 14:1

    USN Retired Vietnam/Desert Shield/Desert Storm

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    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    I am glad to see a little more "humanity" in this thread than I've found in some of the others.

    I do NOT advocate running around looking for a "wrong to be righted." That pretty much fits my definition of being a vigilante.

    But when a person finds himself thrust in a position not of their choosing, where their action can help another human being, doing so is a very human thing.

    All too often, I read post that state in no uncertain terms, "For me and mine, alone." I almost have to believe such statements are not true. Hopefully, they'll read Euclidean's post (#10 above,) and at least allow themselves some "wiggle-room" in their philosophy.

    Know what the Law is in your area. If your actions go against that Law, know that you will likely suffer the consequences. But while your at it, ask yourself what you and your family can live with. Think about how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

    As has been said, very little is "hard and fast." Don't be too quick to give up your humanity while exercising your human rights.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  16. #15
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    I would say if someone comes into a store with a weapon, intent on doing harm, you have every right to end that situation by all means possible.

    Think about it-what if you did nothing and after the perp got the cash, he pulled the trigger and killed the clerk right in front of you? Could you live with that?

    This again reminds me of the elderly man who saved the Walmart employee who was being stabbed to death in the store by her ex. Imagine if no one helped her? She would have died, others may have been hurt. The old man decided to save a life, and thus took a life. As far as I know, no charges were ever filed.

    I live by the words that 'it is better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6.' If an armed man is holding up a store, I would most likely draw on him and command him to lay down his weapon. Most likely, he would respond by attempting to draw on you, and in that case, game on. The scenario changes if the store is full of people. I would keep my cool then and just make sure I could ID the guy completely. No sense getting people killed. If he started shooting, I would react, but if he was just sticking up the place, then I would lay back.

    Good reason for practice. You might only get 1 shot in a situation like that, so make it count.
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

    Nietzsche



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