Learning from History | Mumbai terrorist attacks

This is a discussion on Learning from History | Mumbai terrorist attacks within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I happen to research and keep current with geo-politics and the war on terrorism on a daily basis. The reason that Mumbi attacks happened in ...

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Thread: Learning from History | Mumbai terrorist attacks

  1. #16
    New Member Array Redflight09's Avatar
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    I happen to research and keep current with geo-politics and the war on terrorism on a daily basis.

    The reason that Mumbi attacks happened in the first place is that due to increased security across the world soft targets (malls, hotels etc) are really the only place that terrorist are able to attack right now.

    And the reason they were so effective was the lack of training and poor execution of local and military forces in India.

    If you think this could happen in the USA with the same success rate you are mistaken. Our local police and Swat forces are much more highly trained with proper firepower to put a serious dent in a plan like this. Not to mention that local citizens would not stand for something like this.

    We live in the greatest country in the world and always will as far as I am concerned. I agree that some of the freedoms that we are accustomed to having have been seriously infringed due to this "war on terror" and it makes me very sad. My grandfather didn't get sunk twice in WWII and fight his butt off to just surrender our freedoms at will because of a spineless terrorist attack.

    Unfortunately we (you and I) are the only link back to that great golden age of fighting for what is right. I teach my kids and others the value of our freedom so they will not continue to just give it away. Sometimes I think its just a loosing battle and I'm sure I am not the only one. But I will continue hard fast until I'm six feet under or they pry my firearm out of my cold hand.

    I do one thing though........I remember the values this country was based on and I hold fast to the fact that the USA is the best place on this earth. And I remain a link to those who came before me.

    Now let me see if I can get down off this dang soap box.
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  3. #17
    Member Array Obiwan's Avatar
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    Here in S. Fla we FREQUENTLY hear of Cubans/Haitians coming ashore undetected (until after they're here and say "yo soy cubano" and "donde' esta mi casa nueva y dinero securidad social". There is nothing that would stop anyone from shooting up South Beach before help arrived! The recently redone Fountainebleu is a plum target!
    When seconds count, help is minutes away!

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    There were police in the area but they did little as the police jobs are given as political/relational favors. The firearms carried are old and they get little to no training on them.

    A trained, armed person could have taken out several of them easily as they were just walking around firing at people.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redflight09 View Post
    If you think this could happen in the USA with the same success rate you are mistaken. Our local police and Swat forces are much more highly trained with proper firepower to put a serious dent in a plan like this. Not to mention that local citizens would not stand for something like this.
    I agree about the difference in training levels, but there's a lot of killing possible between (attack foiled, no friendlies dead) and what went down there. (I was surprised at how long it took to kill so few. Does anyone know if the area was old style construction with lots of stone and mud in the walls? Lots of rebuilding and redesigning to create a maze?)

    The people carrying in "may issue" areas like Los Angeles are like the Mumbai police, politically connected drones, if not criminals. They would be nearly useless for defense.

    The LA police? "When seconds count..." A group of terrorists could secure a mall (or other area with similar pedestrian traffic choke points such as a school, church, hotel), assign some to prevent entry, some to prevent exit, and some to hunt and kill. They could have control before the police had time to react. So what if all of them were to die? They are there to become martyrs.

    Strategy? The bulk of the forces are in vans or buses in the parking lot. Scouts to find the security staff and any stray cops. Signal the blocking forces to get into position to seize the entries. (No indication of trouble to set off alarms up to this point.)

    Signal the attack.

    The scouts kill the obvious resistance, the blocking forces take the doors, the main forces dismount and charge in with weapons, vests, and hooligan bars. Total time to effectively seal the facility so the massacre can begin, less than one minute. With a bit of training and proper target selection and timing, they could have a thousand dead before the SWAT team got their pants on.

    Add a couple of sniper nests with silenced rifles outside the facility to buy extra time for the executioners inside and to increase the death rate among the responders. Add a couple of car bombs to the parking lot.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    I agree about the difference in training levels, but there's a lot of killing possible between (attack foiled, no friendlies dead) and what went down there. (I was surprised at how long it took to kill so few. Does anyone know if the area was old style construction with lots of stone and mud in the walls? Lots of rebuilding and redesigning to create a maze?)

    The people carrying in "may issue" areas like Los Angeles are like the Mumbai police, politically connected drones, if not criminals. They would be nearly useless for defense.

    The LA police? "When seconds count..." A group of terrorists could secure a mall (or other area with similar pedestrian traffic choke points such as a school, church, hotel), assign some to prevent entry, some to prevent exit, and some to hunt and kill. They could have control before the police had time to react. So what if all of them were to die? They are there to become martyrs.

    Strategy? The bulk of the forces are in vans or buses in the parking lot. Scouts to find the security staff and any stray cops. Signal the blocking forces to get into position to seize the entries. (No indication of trouble to set off alarms up to this point.)

    Signal the attack.

    The scouts kill the obvious resistance, the blocking forces take the doors, the main forces dismount and charge in with weapons, vests, and hooligan bars. Total time to effectively seal the facility so the massacre can begin, less than one minute. With a bit of training and proper target selection and timing, they could have a thousand dead before the SWAT team got their pants on.

    Add a couple of sniper nests with silenced rifles outside the facility to buy extra time for the executioners inside and to increase the death rate among the responders. Add a couple of car bombs to the parking lot.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. That is almost the exact same scenario executed at the school in Beslan not to mention the theater in Moscow. Russians have been dealing with this threat for a lot longer than we have and are IMO way better trained with reaction forces and they still had catastophic losses in both events as well as others. I have to respectfully disagree with the other poster about our training here in the US. Our mindset is no longer in condition yellow as it was on September 12, 2001 right after the attacks. The media and lib politicians have eroded that mindset and we will all suffer as a result. Unfortunately this country will likely have to see another 9/11 event to wake up again. Like I said before, a matter of when, not if.

    I may be "paranoid" now but I will be "prepared" when it happens and it will. I would wager it will be 1st generation US born children of Mid-east / African immigrants having already settled here and that have access to all of our rights and judicial priveliges too.

    The Beslan school was planned by (AQ backed) Chechens, led by a few Chechens (2 or 3), but almost exclusively executed by Ossetians with access to all of the facilities and paperwork of the local citizenry.
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  7. #21
    Member Array bcvojak's Avatar
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    We are darn luck that there haven't been more attacks here in the US. Try this scenario.

    2 months before Christmas. .

    Across America malls are full of people. At 15-20 malls across the country, vans pull up to a primary mall entrance. 4-5 men armed with rifles concealed under long coats exit each van. Once inside the mall they pull out the rifles and fire for 90 seconds, shooting everyone in sight.

    Then they exit the mall, return to the van and speed off before the first 911 call has even connected.

    Repeat scenario on a random basis, at different malls.

    The malls would empty out and the economy would take another major hit. How hard would it be to actually pull this off, with a minimal risk of being caught/killed?

    Then there are schools, daycare centers, churches. The list is endless. I'm actually amazed that things like this HAVEN'T already happened here.
    Somewhere in the Pacific NW

  8. #22
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    I may be "paranoid" now but I will be "prepared" when it happens and it will. I would wager it will be 1st generation US born children of Mid-east / African immigrants having already settled here and that have access to all of our rights and judicial priveliges too.

    I don't think your paranoid, I alos believe it is a matter of when it happens. I try to be prepared, however, a handgun against a semi-auto or full auto rifle isn't great odds.

  9. #23
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    Why are so many so unafraid?

    It is hard to argue with the situations presented here. A small set of 4 to 5 man teams could indeed pull off the shopping mall scenario of run in shoot and run out.

    We are indeed sitting on a time bomb and when someone decides to send us a message, many many peope will be slaughtered.

    So why is it that so many americans will not even admit to the possibility of this happening? And why do they refuse to even moderately train and equip themselves for self defense?

    It boggles my mind.

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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Two vans. One drops off the assault team at one door and drives off. The second van is at the second door to pick them up. Go to the next mall and repeat.

    Alternative, drop an assault team at one door and a car bomb at another. Set off the bomb when the crowd trying to escape is really packed.

    Smoke bomb, fire alarm, car bomb. Next week, just the smoke bomb and fire alarm.

    I counted fifteen small doors, back doors to the different shops, on three sides of the local mall. I'm not going out the glass doors if something strange happens.

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    I have to think that in the US, if police responded, and found someone fighting back, it would throw a wrench in all the practice and training.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Read Tom Clancy's novel: The Teeth of the Tiger as it posits exactly such a scenario. Great book overall, too.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Right after the 911 attacks, some friends of mine and myself were hashing out what we saw as an inevitable terror "front" being opened on home soil and we theorized how it might go since it's possible that terrorists have been smuggled into the country since the 1990s. Based on US Border Patrol stats on those illegal aliens from threat nations actually intercepted at the border and then extrapolating forward there may be around 70,000 potential terrorists inside our borders all over the country.

    These buddies of mine are fairly experienced individuals in law enforcement, the intelligence community and special operations. Then there is lil ol me. I read a lot. LOL

    We sort of came to the conclusion that there could be three or four levels of terror operative looking to commence hostilities.

    FIRST, there might be the organized cells with specific targets. The cell will have trigger pullers, support personnel to establish safe houses, documents etc and probably recon and security types. These are the folks who will have the WMD assets and be looking to score multiple 911's but oh so much worse than the original.

    SECOND there would be trained terrorists with knowledge of fieldcraft but here as sleepers. They may have been here for years. They may have been assigned specific targets or they may have been given an array of potential targets to strike under a given codeword ("GO" CODE).

    THIRD would be the random trigger pullers smuggled across the Mexican border since 911. They will be dedicated Jihadis but probably limited in education and salable civilian skills. They may settle into areas with high latino populations since the two at least superficially bear a resemblance to each other in physical features. They will secure typical illegal immigrant jobs and wait to strike. These would be the ones most likely to snap and go into sudden Jihadi syndrome as may have been demonstrated in the past perhaps in this most recent recruiter murder. However, there is no telling how many of these will remain dedicated to their original objectives and how many might succumb to the allure of the American lifestyle and simply move from the mission to the dream. OTOH, there is also no telling how many of the dedicated moles will stay on task and may even recruit new members to the cause, especially if arrested for other offenses and forced to move into the correctional system.

    That very correctional system would provide the last and FOURTH wave of a much larger and coordinated plan. The converted are still criminals and now it's like they have a license to kill in the name of their pagan god (lower case deliberate) which they will embrace.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #28
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    Exsoldier:

    Your scenario is probably more accurate than many would like to admit. It is really a shame that the last 8 years of safety precautions are rapidly going out the window.

    Since so few americans believe in the probability of more terrorist attacks, it is going to be extremely difficult to defend against this type of attack.

    Seems like we have to figure out the likely location of the attack and live somewhere else to avoid being caught up in it.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Hmmmmmmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    I'm not going out the glass doors if something strange happens.
    I'm not going out any doors until I can ascertain locations and threats. I'm heading for hard cover and good observation/fields of fire.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  16. #30
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    Exclamation Actually....

    Quote Originally Posted by twocan View Post
    Seems like we have to figure out the likely location of the attack and live somewhere else to avoid being caught up in it.
    There is NO such place. Think about this: If you really want to strike fear and terror into the hearts of Americans you wouldn't bomb Washington DC or even New York City. Nope. You'd go deep into the heartland of the country someplace like ... I dunno ... WEST OVER-SHOE WYOMING (making up a town) and wipe out an elementary school. So don't ever think there is a single place anywhere in the world you can go to hide from this fight. Your only choice is: Do you cower in fear or do you fight back? Like Patrick Swayze said in RED DAWN: We're all gonna die, so die standing up!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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